Oh dear...

The British have to explain why they want a long extension, if it so happens that Parliament next week says no to Theresa Mays deal with the EU for the third time.
- The European leaders are wondering what the time is to be used for, says Sweden's EU Minister Hans Dahlgren.
Next week, EU members will meet for a summit. Hans Dahlgren doesn't think there will be any negotiations then. However, the British leaders are likely to ask the British people what they want.
- We have a frustration that feels so strong. Now we have been doing this for two and a half years, shall we continue for a number of years when we have so many other important things to work with? There is so much else we should do than keep up with this.

Beyond all reasonable doubt.

I would make that at least 1119 days, since the commitment to call a referendum was made by David Cameron on 20 February 2016. Planning should have started then.

I’m sorry, but living in Canada I have not been following BREXIT,
if i were a UK citizen i would have voted to stay in BREXIT.
so i'am just curious, could our UK citizens tell us you political opinion stay or go and why?
also all other posters, what every country you live in, your political opinion stay or go and why?

just curiousity :-)

Best Wishes,
byron - Democratic Socialist.

I don't mind giving it a try. First, we have to correct your terminology. BREXIT isn't a state, but a process: the process of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (mouthful!) separating itself from membership of the European Union. So you can't be IN Brexit, it's something you should pass through and come out the other side.

Though at the current rate of progress, it doesn't feel like that: staying in Brexit is certainly an apt description.

We held a referendum in June 2016 (33 months ago), and we voted roughly 52%::48% - 52% to leave the EU, and 48% to stay a member. There were strong regional variations in the poll, and two of the major components of the UK (Scotland and Northern Ireland) voted to remain in the EU: the other two (England and Wales) voted to leave.

I'm a member of the 48% - a Remainer.

When I'm asked why, I usually reply by saying that I have a multiple sense of scale, of belongingness. I belong in my little courtyard of four houses: I don't belong in the scruffy street that leads up to it. I belong in the village, but I don't belong in the nearest town. I belong in the city (Bradford) where I spent my working life, but I don't belong in the next bigger city (Leeds, 10 miles further away). I do belong in Yorkshire, the county that encompasses them both.

And so on. I'm not English (although I was born in England), but I am British - I had visited all three countries by my early teens. I'm not a citizen of the UK: I didn't visit Northern Ireland until last year, 50 years after the other three.

And I've travelled quite widely. I think my first overseas trip was to the USA, aged 4. Since then, I've visited the USSR, much of Europe, India, Africa, and South America. This year, I'm completing the circle with another trip to the USA.

And my conclusion is that the Nation State is at the wrong scale for 'belongingness', and is an artificial construct which has outlived its era. I'll end my days either pottering around Yorkshire, or as a citizen of the planet, perhaps embodied in the United Nations. I see the European Union as a (certainly flawed) first step on the road onwards and outwards to planetary, solar system, galactic belongingness (even though that certainly won't be reached in my lifetime).

That's my story, anyway. Others will contribute theirs.

LOL:)
Then first you need to know what the EU is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O37yJBFRrfg
That was the short story that actually most people living in the EU doesn't know so much about.
And there is more I might add.
So asking yourself "Should we stay or should we go" is a very tricky question.

But asking me I think EU is a great idea.
To bad that 28 countries can't agree with each other though.
I think it's because there are too many differences between us both political and cultural.
Heck, we don't even speak the same language and not having the same currency...

We have a nice anthem, 'Ode to Joy', though:)

I don't mind giving it a try. First, we have to correct your terminology. BREXIT isn't a state, but a process: the process of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (mouthful!) separating itself from membership of the European Union. So you can't be IN Brexit, it's something you should pass through and come out the other side.
Though at the current rate of progress, it doesn't feel like that: staying in Brexit is certainly an apt description.

<snip/>

thank you Richard and Mooning for your thoughtful post.

Oops i am sorry, Yes I do apologize Richard and Mooning,
my mistake, what I meant to say was:
European Union
British citizens
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britain
if i remember correctly did president Charles DeGaual of France try blocked Britain,
from membership in European union ? 1960's ??
Why did de Gaulle oppose UK entry into the EEC?
https://www.quora.com/Why-did-de-Gaulle-oppose-UK-entry-into-the-EEC

so I'm just curious, could our British citizens tell us you political opinion,
stay or go in the European Union and why?
also all other posters, who live in other countries, could you tell us your political opinion,
for the Briton to stay or go in European Union the and why?
I know that other posters, that live in other countries will probale say: it is for uk citizens to decide.

https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en
https://europa.eu/european-union/index_en

My own political opinion:
the UK should stay in European Union
Why: Because as a single Block, The European Union
and hence the UK, would be better able to compete World wide - in Trade, Business, and finance.

I don't know Maybe somebody, could tell me where i wrong?

Richard, Mooning and anyone --- I would welcome other comments you might have yay or nay :) ?
just curiosity :-)

Best Wishes,
byron - Democratic Socialist.

My own political opinion:
the UK should stay in European Union
Why: Because as a single Block, The European Union
and hence the UK, would be better able to compete World wide - in Trade, Business, and finance.

No real problem with that, except I would prefer to co-operate worldwide, rather than compete.

It feels more socialist, somehow.

The biggest issues with the EU is probably that some countries are net givers and some are net receivers.

And that EU countries handle immigrant crises differently.

Which makes it a bit, kinda, socialist: "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs".

I like that. But not everybody likes helping people less well off than themselves. On this scale, at least. They might help out a neighbour who's fallen on hard times, or give to a charity in their town, but a whole country? Nah.

He did not rule out a financial settlement for Northern Ireland if the DUP backed the deal.

If any oink in the street attempted that, they'd be charged under the Bribery & Corruption Act.

No vote without DUP support

I don't mind giving it a try. First, we have to correct your terminology. BREXIT isn't a state, but a process: the process of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" (mouthful!) separating itself from membership of the European Union. So you can't be IN Brexit, it's something you should pass through and come out the other side.

Agreed

Though at the current rate of progress, it doesn't feel like that: staying in Brexit is certainly an apt description.

Agreed

We held a referendum in June 2016 (33 months ago), and we voted roughly 52%::48% - 52% to leave the EU, and 48% to stay a member. There were strong regional variations in the poll, and two of the major components of the UK (Scotland and Northern Ireland) voted to remain in the EU: the other two (England and Wales) voted to leave.

Agreed

I'm a member of the 48% - a Remainer.

I'm a member of the 52% - a Brexiteer, and I think 'brexiteer' is a daft description, although I prefer to label Remainers as Remoaners.

When I'm asked why, I usually reply by saying that I have a multiple sense of scale, of belongingness. I belong in my little courtyard of four houses: I don't belong in the scruffy street that leads up to it. I belong in the village, but I don't belong in the nearest town. I belong in the city (Bradford) where I spent my working life, but I don't belong in the next bigger city (Leeds, 10 miles further away). I do belong in Yorkshire, the county that encompasses them both.

When I'm asked why, I'm more concerned with democracy, in multiple senses. First of all the EU is blatantly undemocratic, EU Commissioners are appointed, I don't care who appoints them, the point is they should be elected by the people, not appointed. Secondly, the EU Commission is lobbied by 2500 companies to enact legislation to enable them to either trade in a new product, trade in something that isn't really tested, or prevent companies outside the EU from competing on an equal footing,

The process of Law Making can only be started by the EU Commission, they decide what Laws or Regulation needs to be created, the EU Parliament full of elected MEPs, each representing about millions of people, in not a very fair way (some countries have smaller populations and yet have more MEPs per capita than other countries, giving the people with a greater population represented less say, but I digress that is a democratic deficit, yet the EU Parliament is unable to make Laws of itself, or even decide it can amend an existing Law, only the EU Commission can do this. The EU parliament does get to vote on the new legislation, and propose amendments though, but can only consider what is put before it by the Commission.

All sounds a little strange doesn't it? It's certainly not the democratic model used in the UK, however in practice it gets worse.

Often the EU Commission asks the companies that lobby them to actually write the proposed new Laws or amendments to existing Laws for it, of which there are literally thousands every year, the EU Commission does not have the time or resources to create these Laws for itself, so the companies do it, and the new proposed Laws are passed to the EU Parliament, often the MEPs find that the company that wrote the new Laws have left their headed company paper in the document, the MEPs have virtually no time to read these new Laws or Amendments to existing Laws, and with the Block Voting nature of the EU Parliament, they rely on their Leadership to tell them which way to vote on each paper.

So there's a big democratic deficit again, the companies write their own Laws, the people that are elected are told how to vote.

On top of this, the UK has a Veto, a rapidly diminishing Veto on new legislation, but of the many times that the UK has Vetoed Legislation, they have lost the subsequent reconsideration, and the Law is passed. The UK has barely 8% of any Vote otherwise in the Parliament and is often over-ruled, even if they try and fail with a Veto afterwards. Under the Lisbon Treaty, by 2020/2022 the EU Parliament introduces Majority Voting, reducing our voting influence down to 3.5% and removing all Vetoes, plus everyone in the EU has to adopt the Euro, and all Sovereignty is transferred to the EU, including our military, Trade Policy, Taxation, Social Care Policy, you name it.

That is a massive democratic deficit, we would be completely controlled by the EU, and our Parliament would be reduced to the status of a Local Council.

And so on. I'm not English (although I was born in England), but I am British - I had visited all three countries by my early teens. I'm not a citizen of the UK: I didn't visit Northern Ireland until last year, 50 years after the other three.

The EU has its own Regionalisation Plans, it wants to combine England with France, Wales and Northern Ireland with the Irish Republic, and Scotland with Scandinavia. Gibraltar would be under the control of Spain. The UK would effectively be no more.

And I've travelled quite widely. I think my first overseas trip was to the USA, aged 4. Since then, I've visited the USSR, much of Europe, India, Africa, and South America. This year, I'm completing the circle with another trip to the USA.

I am former TAVR, and served annually with BAOR in West Germany, visiting the Netherlands, and Denmark, and have had holidays in Greece, all before the Euro was introduced into the Eurozone, of which the UK is not a member state using that currency, we had an argument to use the Exchange Rate Mechanism as a precursor to joining the Euro, but the Euro is not a stable currency, so we decided it wasn't for us, in fact it is a currency closely controlled by German Banks. So we opted out, we also opted out of schengen, due to security concerns, and boy were we right. However, if we stayed in the EU we'd have to adopt both under the Lisbon Treaty.

I've also recently had a holiday in Australia, visiting cousins, and if I'm honest I'd emigrate there like a shot, even if they don't have an NHS, and I am a former retired NHS Ambulance Paramedic, so the stories about 'Brexiteers' not caring about it are baloney.

So I'm not happy with the democratic deficit, or the Lisbon Treaty, and we would both have to admit that neither side described what would happen to the UK under that Treaty during the campaigning in 2016 prior to the Referendum, had they done so I'm sure the result would not have been as close as 4%.

And my conclusion is that the Nation State is at the wrong scale for 'belongingness', and is an artificial construct which has outlived its era. I'll end my days either pottering around Yorkshire, or as a citizen of the planet, perhaps embodied in the United Nations. I see the European Union as a (certainly flawed) first step on the road onwards and outwards to planetary, solar system, galactic belongingness (even though that certainly won't be reached in my lifetime).

Before concluding, I would also add that the roots of the EU was first the European Coal and Steel Community, then the European Economic Community,. This name was first proposed as the name for a post-WW2 means to control Europe in 1942 by the Nazis in Berlin, they called it Europaische Wirtschaffgeseilschaft, which you guessed it, means European Economic Community in German, because the Nazis thought they were going to win. It later was renamed the European Union.

If ever there was a bad smell about an organisation, then the fact that it was first proposed by Nazis, has to be it.

In conclusion, I would say that anyone that voted Remain, wasn't voting for what has since happened and what is proposed subsequent to the Lisbon Treaty as the future of the EU, because nobody was aware of this in 2016, except the politicians. I'm afraid I won't accept the loss of my country, and its Sovereignty , I do not see the EU as being democratic, in fact I see it as the opposite, it is anti-democratic, and quite frankly, the way we've been treated, the way the EU has treated Theresa May, who is an idiot, but is our idiot, and disrespecting her is disrespecting the UK, and I won't accept that.

In terms of finances, we currently receive in EU Grants/Funding just 55% of what we pay into the EU in Membership Fee, ToR (Tariffs), and VAT (an EU Tax) (2018 figures from the European Parliament), and by 2022 our UK Rebate (negotiated by Margaret Thatcher) will be ended under the Lisbon Treaty, and we will by then only receive 38% of what we pay into the EU.

It is estimated that we will be £137 Billion better off in the first year outside the EU on WTO Terms, and £640 Billion better off over the first five years, conversely the EU will be £500 Billion worse off over the same period, figures courtesy Professor Minfford.

Its what you Americans call a 'no brainer'.

That's my story, anyway. Others will contribute theirs.

My contribution.

---

EU Commissioners are appointed, I don't care who appoints them, the point is they should be elected by the people, not appointed.

So are you for or against the Lords? and the Monarch?

Before concluding, I would also add that the roots of the EU was first the European Coal and Steel Community, then the European Economic Community,. This name was first proposed as the name for a post-WW2 means to control Europe in 1942 by the Nazis in Berlin, they called it Europaische Wirtschaffgeseilschaft, which you guessed it, means European Economic Community in German, because the Nazis thought they were going to win. It later was renamed the European Union.

If ever there was a bad smell about an organisation, then the fact that it was first proposed by Nazis, has to be it.

Fascist 'European Economic Community' to 'European Union'. That is quite a bit of a stretch.

Not that it isn't interesting or doesn't have some historic play but the words 'European' and 'Union' are in themselves or combined quite innocuous

In conclusion, I would say that anyone that voted Remain, wasn't voting for what has since happened and what is proposed subsequent to the Lisbon Treaty as the future of the EU, because nobody was aware of this in 2016, except the politicians. .........

I suspect that most people voted stay or go emotionally and only the minority middle \ upper classes or intellectuals voted with their wallet, ideology or with ideas like the 'Lisbon Treaty' et al?

Many voted to leave because since Thatcher (Circa 1999) there has been no real opponents to the march towards monetarism in the UK and certainly no social minded governments.

It is estimated that we will be £137 Billion better off in the first year outside the EU on WTO Terms, and £640 Billion better off over the first five years, conversely the EU will be £500 Billion worse off over the same period, figures courtesy Professor Minfford.

The end finances of leaving the EU is yet to be seen.

There certainly is a relationship building with China and cheap products including low quality piece meal items for the masses.

(It is even driving down legal standards in the UK. For example at one time it would be illegal or unthinkable to sell an electrical device \ component that did not have a UK or EU stamp of approval on it. Now we can buy (and the local shops sell) any old cheap crap... I know... I've had things set on fire that should not have.)

Its what you Americans call a 'no brainer'.

I don't think all Americans would agree that leaving a wide community for some short (or projected long) term benefits would be a 'no brainer.'

20% of the US can't afford basic health care including primary first aid or basic dental care.

It is likely that a larger number struggle to keep a basic or average level of living standards.



For me I think we are facing something of an emotional or perhaps primordial reaction in the Brexit vote.

The reason we haven't left yet or started to disconnect is because the powerful and wealthy are postulating and second guessing what they personally will gain or lose. They also have no regard for law or our political system as things would have moved much quicker otherwise.

(My vote on Brexit is private as the majority has voted..)

That's my story, anyway. Others will contribute theirs.

My contribution.

I added my bit too... In my own way :)

Before concluding, I would also add that the roots of the EU was first the European Coal and Steel Community, then the European Economic Community,. This name was first proposed as the name for a post-WW2 means to control Europe in 1942 by the Nazis in Berlin, they called it Europaische Wirtschaffgeseilschaft, which you guessed it, means European Economic Community in German, because the Nazis thought they were going to win. It later was renamed the European Union.

If ever there was a bad smell about an organisation, then the fact that it was first proposed by Nazis, has to be it.

European Coal and Steel Community was called Europäische Gemeinschaft für Kohle und Stahl in Germany.
The idea of such community was quite the opposite of the Nazi idea.
The idea of co-operation of a coal and steel was laid through the Schuman Declaration in 1950.
The Declaration was about how the coal and steel industry in France could work with West Germany through joint control and gradually open up a federal Europe. Since the coal and steel industry is the base of the war industry, the joint control of these industries would secure future peace in Europe.

Since the coal and steel industry is the base of the war industry, the joint control of these industries would secure future peace in Europe.

The coal and steel (or at least iron) industry has been going on pre-roman and mostly since us humans (and our forbears) gathered together.

I understand what you mean. Relative to the industrial revolution as we see it. (1700+)

... but the coal and steel industry in any time in our history has nothing to do with war. Though war does hasten the need for certain products like energy and metals.

Resources are things we have always found and used. We exploit this.

War sadly has just been a more violent exploit.

Rarely though in the past for such things as coal (trees) or iron.

Although when basic resources get low ... who knows..

Britain has no coal resources that it is mining and we are not churning up our landscape to extract iron.


Even if we do the political Brexit thing we are still part of Europe.

We are lucky. We have no war in Europe.

At the moment most Europe issues are not secured based on coal or iron.

We have moved on.

Perhaps oil, gas, copper, aluminum, i-phones and sweet potatoe mocha latas are the new lingua-franca in terms of absolute needs..

Or maybe France is correct in it's dedication to careful use of atomic energy. After all it sells it's surplus electricity and has a policy of working towards breeders that may one day allow an atomic cell to power a city for years but produce no more radiation than the energy used.

I have no special understanding of Brexit.

We may gain some things.

We are going to lose our neighbours.

Britain (or England) has oft stood on it's own.

I wonder if the Brexit vote wasn't something to do with a harkening back to the 1940s.

We have had a right wing conservative mindset for so long now (even from the supposed left wingers) that the social connectivity and working togetherness of 1940s Isolated Britain seems like a good place to go back to as a reset.

moomin.. You make me think..:)

We are lucky. We have no war in Europe.

I think you mean within the EU.
Only in the 90's there were war in the Balkans. And now in Ukraine.
But I think it's the longest period of peace in Europe's history, 70 years, in the rest of Europe.
I think it was 20 to 25 years between wars before that...

When Britain leave the EU I guess not so much will change to us commons.
The EU is basically a trade union which will mean there will be customs on trade between EU and Britain.
How different it will be no one can say since there are no deals yet.
Win some, lose some I would guess.
I'm quite certain that the price of food will rise in Britain though.
And free movement that can complicate thing for expats.

Come to think about. I haven't been to the UK since Sweden joined the EU 1995.
So to me Brexit will not be a change:)

Brits who purchased, and like to visit, a holiday cottage in sunny France or sunny Spain may find their cheap walk-on flights disrupted. Or they may not. Nobody knows. There will be surprises.

We are lucky. We have no war in Europe.

I think you mean within the EU.

... Only in the 90's there were war in the Balkans. And now in Ukraine....

I know. I kind of meant there is no war that is Pan-European or likely to distabalise Europe at the moment.

Eastern Europe (UK = Far South East?) has had a really poor time. Even now there are agressive forces at play.

... But I think it's the longest period of peace in Europe's history, 70 years, in the rest of Europe.
I think it was 20 to 25 years between wars before that...

We are more than lucky.

....I'm quite certain that the price of food will rise in Britain though.

Karl Marx said if there was going to be a world revolution it would start in Britain and would be fueled by Capitalism. (Of course he said that in time with all the other isms.)

For me it makes no difference as long as food, housing, health and the basic needs of life are affordable and don't dip.

.Come to think about. I haven't been to the UK since Sweden joined the EU 1995.
So to me Brexit will not be a change:)

Does Sweden sell anything to or buy anything from the UK? Does Sweden use British banks or institutions?

I think expected Brexit is already having an effect.

If Britain (the 4th or 5th? largest financial ecconomy) moves away from it's nearest neighbour I think it will have ripples around the world.

Listening to world news - it seems so.