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Fusion power on the grid within 15 years?
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Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36731 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
Getting a bit closer. [urlhttps://www.microsoftnewskids.com/en-us/kids/science-tech/to-usher-in-the-fusion-age-scientists-must-reckon-with-unruly-plasma-spurts/ar-AA11NA52?cvid=d222bf6ddf3c43529abced82a02ec537=]To Usher in the ‘Fusion Age,’ Scientists Must Reckon With Unruly Plasma Spurts.[/url] Cheers. |
Bob DeWoody Send message Joined: 9 May 10 Posts: 3387 Credit: 4,182,900 RAC: 10 |
Looks as promising as anything I've seen so far. But what do I know? So I will fall back on my previous position. I'll believe it when I see it. Which unfortunately, most likely, will be after I'm no longer here to benefit from it. Bob DeWoody My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36731 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
The US is set to announce a “major scientific breakthrough” after reports scientists have achieved a major milestone in nuclear fusion research. The US Department of Energy said Sunday it would announce a “major scientific breakthrough” this week, after media reported a federal laboratory had recently achieved a major milestone in nuclear fusion research.Cheers. |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1387 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
Twenty percent net energy gain, all at once; that's remarkable! I would have expected just a few percent, at best, at this stage. They'll naturally be wanting to determine if this amazing result can be repeated, at will, if they've not already done so. I remember, as a child, having the Livermore nuclear lab pointed out to me many times, when traveling by car through that area. Will be looking for the formal announcement today with great interest. Thanks, Wiggo, for sharing this story. |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1387 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
The formal announcement about a breakthrough in nuclear fusion has been given. The only qualification of the report of 20 percent net gain in energy appears to be that this was 20 percent over the energy directed at the fusion target, not the total energy to run the lasers and the rest of the experimental apparatus. This is considered a valid way of describing scientific net energy gain. The application of this sort of fusion technique to practical power generation is a different matter, of course. There, a net gain over the total energy used in the fusion process, and a considerable one, is needed. Still, it is the first time that even this sort of net energy gain has been achieved, and they did so by a fairly wide margin of 20 percent. I've found no reference to whether this feat has been accomplished only once, or repeatedly. Please find a link, below, to a video of the announcement, as well as a written report: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/east-bay/energy-officials-to-announce-nuclear-fusion-breakthrough-at-livermore-lab/3103572/ |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1387 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
Some interesting, and puzzling, figures from a BBC article on this achievement, linked below. They report that 2.05 mega joules were sent into the fusion target by the lasers, and that 3.15 mega joules were gotten out. This is a factor of about 1.5. This seems to contradict the already given figure of 20 percent net energy gain. Was there some attempt here, to factor in the total energy used to produce fusion, not just the energy delivered to the target? Did this produce the 20 percent figure? If not, I wonder what it means. https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-63950962 |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1387 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
An article from Science Magazine, linked below, has greater breadth and depth than most. It repeats the figures -- 2.05 mega joules input, and 3.15 MJ output. No mention is made of the 20 percent net energy gain report, seen elsewhere. It also covers the 'one shot' nature of these experiments, describing the fusion target in some detail, and emphasizing the precision necessary in its construction. The article also explains that the lasers used are very inefficient, requiring hundreds of times their output power, in order to operate. One reads that there are now more efficient lasers, than those used at the Lawrence Livermore Lab. The possibility is raised that this early success might stimulate interest in a prototype inertial confinement reactor for power production. Currently, such reactors are purely experimental. Tokamak, (magnetic confinement) reactors have long been held to be our best bet for sustained fusion. I wonder if this could be changing. One recalls the renowned Professor Langley plopping his airplanes into the Potomac River, from a barge, while the obscure Wright Brothers were actually mastering power flight. Could this sort of thing happen again, with the 21st century technical challenge of nuclear fusion? https://www.science.org/content/article/historic-explosion-long-sought-fusion-breakthrough |
ML1 Send message Joined: 25 Nov 01 Posts: 21189 Credit: 7,508,002 RAC: 20 |
A good and clear explanation is given on: Was There a Major Breakthrough in Fusion? Not Really...Here Are The Facts So... That is certainly a good leap forward for the science and physics and for that test facility. ... The technical bits need a lot more work! Keep searchin'! Martin See new freedom: Mageia Linux Take a look for yourself: Linux Format The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3) |
Michael Watson Send message Joined: 7 Feb 08 Posts: 1387 Credit: 2,098,506 RAC: 5 |
To be sure, there's a great deal more to be done, before we get commercial electricity generation from fusion. The system-wide energy gain of the fusion reactor at Lawrence Livermore is about 1 percent, I'm told, with global break-even at 100 percent. I don't suppose the first successful Wright 'Flyer' was very efficient, either, by the standards of today's commercial aviation. Small steps... Still, they went from extracting only 70 percent of the energy put into the fusion target 18 months ago, to 150 percent, last week. If they can keep up this sort of progress they'll eventually have something. I'm told that the lasers at Lawrence Livermore are older ones, and that new ones could be 10 times as energy efficient. That seems a likely route to further progress. Having been the first to do (considerably) better that plasma break-even, perhaps they'll get the chance to make such improvements. I'm concerned about the fuel problem. They use deuterium and tritium. The latter is very rare and very expensive . If they can work out a way to use cheap and plentiful protium, they stand a much better chance of producing an economically viable source of power. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36731 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
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Bob DeWoody Send message Joined: 9 May 10 Posts: 3387 Credit: 4,182,900 RAC: 10 |
Whatcha wanna bet once they get a working reactor going nobody is gonna want it in their vicinity? Bob DeWoody My motto: Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow as it may not be required. This no longer applies in light of current events. |
Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36731 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
An ITER update. World's largest nuclear fusion reactor promises clean energy, but the challenges are huge. Provence in southern France is known for its rolling vineyards, fields of lavender, olive groves and idyllic villages.Cheers. |
Julie Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34060 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18 |
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Wiggo Send message Joined: 24 Jan 00 Posts: 36731 Credit: 261,360,520 RAC: 489 |
Looking good for the future. Nuclear Fusion Breakthroughs Suggest Limitless Energy is Closer Than Expected. .....Hence, nuclear fusion has been described as the "holy grail" of energy production.” Over the last few years, significant breakthroughs in materials science and plasma physics have set nuclear fusion on an exponential growth curve.Cheers. |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1177 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
However, the development status of this technology, which is still in its infancy, must be assessed realistically. With today's knowledge, no decade can be named when this technology can make a relevant contribution to our energy supply. The time horizon is unpredictable. The same applies (unfortunately) to a hydrogen-based energy economy. So, we will not see Fusion power on the grid within 15 years, as the thread's title asks. [EDIT:] ... and the thread is already five years old. Advances in fusion research in the US, France, Germany and elsewhere are nonetheless remarkable. Technical revolutions always began when promising research or inventions were further developed into revolutionary technologies by private capital, private initiative. I assume, things are accelerating now. |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1177 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
There has been continuous progress recently also with the "Wendelstein 7-X" stellarator at the Max Planck Institute in Greifswald: (Julie already posted the 'Wendelstein 7-X' newsletter in May 2023, but the latest one there is from 2020) Feb 22, 2023: During the three-year completion work that ended last summer, Wendelstein 7-X was primarily equipped with water cooling for the wall elements and an upgraded heating system. The latter can now couple twice as much power into the plasma as before. On 15 February 2023, the researchers reached a new milestone: for the first time, they were able to achieve an energy turnover of 1.3 gigajoules in this device. This was 17 times higher than the best value achieved before the conversion (75 megajoules) The plasma heating consists of three components: the newly installed ion heating, the heating by neutral particle injection and electron microwave heating. For the current record, the electron microwave heating system was particularly important because it delivers large amounts of power over periods of several minutes. The energy turnover of 1.3 gigajoule was achieved with an average heating power of 2.7 megawatts, whereby the discharge lasted 480 seconds. Within a few years, the plan is to increase the energy turnover at Wendelstein 7-X to 18 gigajoules, with the plasma then being kept stable for half an hour. [EDIT:] schematics and photos of Wendelstein's stellarator design, magnet coils, construction work... |
Julie Send message Joined: 28 Oct 09 Posts: 34060 Credit: 18,883,157 RAC: 18 |
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Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1177 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
Feb 08, 2024: Nuclear fusion: European joint experiment achieves energy record https://www.ipp.mpg.de/5405892/jet_rekord_2024?c=5405906 At the Joint European Torus (JET) in the UK, a European research team has succeeded in generating 69 megajoules of energy from 0.2 milligrams of fuel. This is the largest amount of energy ever achieved in a fusion experiment. [...] The same amount of energy would have required about 2 kilograms of lignite – ten million times as much. |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1177 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
Nuclear fusion for the grid is coming much sooner than you think wrote: Even well-informed members of the West’s political class are mostly unaware of the quantum leap in superconductors, lasers, and advanced materials suddenly changing the economics of fusion power.but... The world’s long-running $20bn ITER research project, a consortium of the US, Japan, Europe, China, and Russia, looks ever more like a beached whale in this contest. It has collected valuable science over the decades but has been dogged by geopolitics and delays, and has never produced more energy than it put in, unlike the Lawrence Livermore lab in the US using the rival technology of inertial fusion. |
Scrooge McDuck Send message Joined: 26 Nov 99 Posts: 1177 Credit: 1,674,173 RAC: 54 |
Bob DeWoody wrote on 2023-01-04: Whatcha wanna bet once they get a working reactor going nobody is gonna want it in their vicinity?Quotes from same article in my previous post: Nuclear fusion for the grid is coming much sooner than you think wrote: Regulators in the UK and the US plan to treat fusion plants like hospitals, since they use tiny amounts of deuterium-tritium. Radioactive release is nothing like a uranium fission reactor. This means they can be built almost anywhere and rolled out fast.[EDIT:] link removed bc article doesn't name safety regulations for fusion power plants (like hospitals). |
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