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existance of god
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Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
I believe Michel said a few points back that God is not subject to the paradoxes we consider. If you accept we are sinful, in the sense as we would find in the Old Testament, then we are sinful because of "Original" Sin. The question, then, would be "How did we become sinners?" (If we never became sinful, we'd still be in Eden and Jesus would never have had to die for our sins.) If we were innocent beforehand (as you put it, "we were innocent, because we lacked the self awareness to differentiate between right and wrong"), then we were without sin. Hence, we were not and could not be rebellious toward God. we got tricked by the snake So, it was not rebellion toward God. Hence, eating the fruit was not caused by sin. Yet, "we disregarded Gods command", thus, our sinful nature caused us to disregard God's command and sin, therefore causing our sinful nature. This doesn't begin to even touch on the paradox of why God would put us to the test like that and allow the snake into the Garden of Eden. As you have claimed, being supernatural, paradoxes don't apply to the Christian God. But they sure do apply to us and our nature, do they not? |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
To me, the tale of the Garden of Eden is a warning to the ignorant not to try to apply critical thinking and knowledge towards debunking the entire bible. It is a warning not to do too much science and logic. Also I never caught on to the dynamics of the "dying to compensate for our sins" thing. It doesn't seem to work since the dogma is everlasting damnation for a single mortal sin. Drat ! I never should have French kissed Mary Lynn in high school !! |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
Yet, "we disregarded Gods command", thus, our sinful nature caused us to disregard God's command and sin, therefore causing our sinful nature. Thats circular logic. We sin because we are sinful and we are sinful because we sinned. You assume here that disregarding Gods command was a sin and that we did it because we like sinning. But we couldn't sin before eating the apple because sinning requires active knowledge that what you are doing is 'wrong'. All we knew was that we weren't supposed to do it but we didn't know why or that doing it was somehow wrong. Put it this way: Does a dog sin when it disregards your command not to poop on the carpet? Also, it should be noted that the whole idea of the original sin is nowhere to be found in the bible. Its something theologians came up with several centuries after Christ, mostly as a critique on Dualist Gnostics. This doesn't begin to even touch on the paradox of why God would put us to the test like that and allow the snake into the Garden of Eden. As you have claimed, being supernatural, paradoxes don't apply to the Christian God. But they sure do apply to us and our nature, do they not? I am not entirely convinced that this is a paradox. Also, paradoxes don't apply to any all powerful God, be they the Christian one or not. |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
To me, the tale of the Garden of Eden is a warning to the ignorant not to try to apply critical thinking and knowledge towards debunking the entire bible. It is a warning not to do too much science and logic. You do realize that the story existed before 'science' was ever a thing right? And its a shame, I think its actually a beautiful allegorical story of how humanity evolved from animal incapable of self awareness to a being with the brains capable of introspection and critical thinking. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
To me, the tale of the Garden of Eden is a warning to the ignorant not to try to apply critical thinking and knowledge towards debunking the entire bible. It is a warning not to do too much science and logic. “The essence of Christianity is told us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on. You could be in the Garden of Eden if you had just keep your mouth shut and hadn't asked any questions.†Oh. My confirmation priest's favorite song. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cXrEPNvRO8 |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
Yet, "we disregarded Gods command", thus, our sinful nature caused us to disregard God's command and sin, therefore causing our sinful nature. That's the point! This doesn't begin to even touch on the paradox of why God would put us to the test like that and allow the snake into the Garden of Eden. As you have claimed, being supernatural, paradoxes don't apply to the Christian God. But they sure do apply to us and our nature, do they not? As I already said, this is not being applied to any (G/g)od, it is a paradox applied to us and our natures. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30908 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Yet, "we disregarded Gods command", thus, our sinful nature caused us to disregard God's command and sin, therefore causing our sinful nature. Exactly, GOD is circular logic! :) |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
To me, the tale of the Garden of Eden is a warning to the ignorant not to try to apply critical thinking and knowledge towards debunking the entire bible. It is a warning not to do too much science and logic. And if we view it only as a beautiful allegory, essentially removing God from the "equation" ... ? |
William Rothamel Send message Joined: 25 Oct 06 Posts: 3756 Credit: 1,999,735 RAC: 4 |
incapable of self awareness my dogs are self-aware. |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
incapable of self awareness Our dog as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Lu5kUEBVWo |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
And if we view it only as a beautiful allegory, essentially removing God from the "equation" ... ? Well then it would make it just another story from the Bible that you shouldn't take as literal history. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
And if we view it only as a beautiful allegory, essentially removing God from the "equation" ... ? So, I should worship the Jewish, or Christian, or any other God, because ... ? Because humans can write beautiful allegorical stories ... ? Or ... ? |
KWSN - MajorKong Send message Joined: 5 Jan 00 Posts: 2892 Credit: 1,499,890 RAC: 0 |
Poenitentiam agite! Or, at least so says Martin Luther. |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
And if we view it only as a beautiful allegory, essentially removing God from the "equation" ... ? You should worship whatever God you want because you feel you want to worship that God. I can't give you any reasons for why you should worship God and as far as I'm concerned, its a personal choice that you have to make for your own reasons. |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
Much of The Bible, as The Quran, is a History of a People. Uh no, they really aren't good historical references or sources. A lot of the stuff that happens in the bible very clearly did not happen in reality. The problem with the bible is that even if there are a few stories somewhat historically accurate, they are placed between a lot of stories that are historically inaccurate or basically just fiction. And given that it deals with ancient times there is almost no way to distinguish between what stories are historically accurate and what stories are not. |
Sarge Send message Joined: 25 Aug 99 Posts: 12273 Credit: 8,569,109 RAC: 79 |
And if we view it only as a beautiful allegory, essentially removing God from the "equation" ... ? You're evading the main point. If it's just a bunch of beautiful allegories, why should we believe there was anything divine behind it?? |
janneseti Send message Joined: 14 Oct 09 Posts: 14106 Credit: 655,366 RAC: 0 |
The Quran an excellent Historical Reference I cannot find historical references in the Quran. Only Abraham, Noha, Gabriel and perhaps other that is mentioned. The Quran is so to speak an amendment to the Bible. It's also a "perfect" book that's not need corrections according to muslims. But imams are distoring the text of the Quran and do their own intepretations. So now we have the daesh, talibans, boko haram and others!!! Haraam is an Arabic term meaning sinful. Boko Haram are very sinful. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30908 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Much of The Bible, as The Quran, is a History of a People. If (believer) assert Much = All |
Мишель Send message Joined: 26 Nov 13 Posts: 3073 Credit: 87,868 RAC: 0 |
You're evading the main point. If it's just a bunch of beautiful allegories, why should we believe there was anything divine behind it?? Divine behind what? Our self awareness? |
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