Show me a fusion reactor producing electricity.
Tullio

Ah, Tullio, if only...

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rOZZ
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Meanwhile, the yearly funding for ITER from our governments looks to be rather meager compared to this funding from just one company:


The chips are DOWN. IBM spends $3bn on its FU-TURE-TURE-TURE

IBM's scientists have been given a whopping $3bn stack of cash to solve a problem that lurks not too far in our future...


That is for similarly important tech, so why is not ITER funded similarly?...

(Could it be that the dirty old power industry hasn't the same sort of 'interest'?...)


All on our only one planet,
Martin

US government is more interested in inertial confinement fusion because it's useful for nuclear weapon research.

http://beta.slashdot.org/story/167399

Is the NIF approach even plausibly capable of generating electricity in a useful way? Or is it purely a research platform / smokescreen for nuclear weapons research?

MIT Researchers: The primary mission of the National Ignition Facility (NIF) is "stockpile stewardship." That is, to ensure that U.S. nuclear weapons continue to be a credible deterrent. This is why NIF is funded by the National Nuclear Security Agency (the agency in charge of the nation’s nuclear stockpile), not the DOE Fusion Energy Sciences program. Thus, the weapons research mission of NIF is not a smokescreen, but is actually the publicly acknowledged primary objective for the facility.

Some researchers at NIF believe that their inertial fusion approach can be used for an energy source as well. We don’t want to speculate here on the plausibility of the LIFE (Laser Inertial Fusion Energy) concept. There is a National Academy of Science review of the prospects of inertial fusion energy under way right now; the final report is expected to be published before the end of this year.

(See also questions 3 and 11-14.)

What I see in Italy and also in Germany is a shift in paradigm. We go from a centralized electricity production to a distributed electricity production, following what happened in computers, from centralized processing to distributed processing. Of course this shift has many problems, which can be overcome using new tools, like "smart grids" and energy storage. They are widely discussed in the pages of the magazine "L'energia elettrica", published by the Italian Electrotechnical Association, of which, as I said, I am a member. Its seems to me that Italy is again leading the field of new electricity production methods, as in the first decades of the XX century, following the ideas of Galileo Ferraris.
Tullio

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What I see in Italy and also in Germany is a shift in paradigm. We go from a centralized electricity production to a distributed electricity production, following what happened in computers, from centralized processing to distributed processing. Of course this shift has many problems, which can be overcome using new tools, like "smart grids" and energy storage.

No, they can't. No smart grid will power the factories with domestic photovoltaic panels.

Following the computation I posted before, if 40,000 km2 of solar panels are needed to produce 1 GW, then, to supply the mean of ~30 GW of electricity that Spain used in 2009, you need 1,200,000 km2 of solar panels. Since Spain's area is ~500,000 km2, you need to cover Spain more than two times with solar panels. Great idea!

How many 0's is "a few 0's"? How do you know I'm wrong if you didn't calculate the value?

I don't intent to misinform people. That's quite unpolite on your part.

Let's do the math:

The Planta Solar 20 (PS20) solar power plant is a solar thermal energy plant in Sanlucar la Mayor near Seville in Andalusia, Spain. It was the world's most powerful solar power tower until the Ivanpah Solar Electric Generating System in California became operational in 2014.[1] The 20 megawatt (MW) solar power tower produces electricity with large movable mirrors called heliostats.[2][3]

PS20 consists of a solar field of 1,255 mirrored heliostats designed by Abengoa Solar. Each heliostat, with a surface area of 120 m2 (1,300 sq ft), reflects the solar radiation it receives onto the receiver, located on the top of a 165 m (541 ft) high tower, producing steam which is converted into electricity by a turbine generator.

1255 heliostasts
120 m2 each

From the image, it's clear that between the heliostats there is some separation, at least of the same lenght than the heliostat. That implies that each heliostat occupies at least four times it's size. So, you have a total area of:

1255 x 120 x 4 = 602400 m2

They produce 20 MW during 8 hours a day. That is, they produce the same energy as a 20/3 = ~7 MW nuclear reactor operating all the day.

So, to produce the same energy as a 1 GW nuclear reactor you need:

602400 * 1000 / 7 = 86,000,000 m2 = 86 km2

So yes, there was an error somewhere.

Now, let's see how much area covers a nuclear power plant. Let's take the biggest nuclear power plant in the world, Bruce Nuclear Generating Station. It occupies 932 ha, that is, 9,320,000 m2, or 9.3 km2. It has a total power of 2 x 772 MW + 2 x 730 MW + 4 x 817 MW = 6.272 GW. So it has 1.48 km2 per GW.

So nuclear power plants occupy 58 times less area than solar power plants.

Just think of all the land area covered by the exclusion zones around nuclear
accident sites

That's simply ridiculous. Currently, there are 434 nuclear reactors connected to the grid in the world. There has been only 2 exclusion areas in accidents in nuclear power plants since the first nuclear power plant was operated in 1948. I don't know how many nuclear reactors there has been since that, but let's say there are 1000 reactors, for example.

That is, in 70 years and around a thousand reactors, there were only 2 (TWO) exclusion zones: Chernobyl exclusion zone (around 2,600 km2) and Fukushima exclusion zone (2,800 km2). That makes a total of around 5 km2 per reactor. Since each reactor occupies already around 1.5 km2, that's not very impresive.

Also, exclusion zones are maintained mostly by political reasons, not public health reasons. There are people living in Chernobyl exclusion zone (some people never abandoned it, and some other people returned afterwards). Almost all the zone lies in Belarus. There is no detectable difference between cancer rate in people living in the exclusion zone and the general population of Belarus. And cancer rates are lower in Belarus than in the US, Australia and other 40 countries.

Even in Hiroshima, a much worse scenario than Chernobyl, there is no detectable genetic diseases increase in the children of the bomb survivors.

or the 75 Billion dollar price tag on cleaning up Fukushima.

Nope. The zone cleanup cost is around 20 million dollar. The decommissioning of the plant is what will cost tens of billions of dollars (it's not clear exactly how much). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_disaster_cleanup The cost of building a nuclear power plant is around 10-20 billion dollars, so the above decommissioning cost isn't so much money. Around a thousand nuclear reactors in 70 years, and only 2 plants will need a decommisioning cost equal to their building cost... Not very impresive.

I am very sure the people of Chernobyl and Fukushima will give you some very strong words and feelings for your glib dismissive nonchalance...


There are also many other areas than just those two large areas that are exclusion zones or will take many more expensive years yet to clean up...


Nuclear fission certainly has its place. However, the financial aspects that always compromise the design and operation are such that a messy disaster can be expected.


All on our only one planet,
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
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France has an excellent record in nuclear energy production because it is a highly centralize state, with excellent technical bureaucracy. I remember professor Mario Silvestri of Milan Polytechnic University, the designer of the CIRENE reactor, a heavy water moderated reactor very similar to the Canadian CANDUs, which was never even started because of a referendum after Chernobyl. He said he was afraid of Italian nuclear reactors managed by politicians who had failed an election. France was wise enough to kill the Superphenix fast breeder reactor, paid one fourth by Italy, after it was discovered that the liquid sodium coolant had corroded the steel tubes.At least we avoided a "nuclear excursion" danger similar to the case of the Enrico Fermi fast reactor in Detroit. Read "The day we almost lost Detroit".
Tullio

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I am very sure the people of Chernobyl and Fukushima will give you some very strong words and feelings for your glib dismissive nonchalance...

I am very sure you don't know what you are talking about. People now in Chernobyl EZ had chosen to live there. Surely, if they have any complaints, they will not live there. There is no people living in Fukushima EZ, and probably most people that lived there will complain. In either case, that has nothing to do with the real fact that no long term health effect have been detected in any of both zones. Your groundless words have nothing to do either.

There are also many other areas than just those two large areas that are exclusion zones or will take many more expensive years yet to clean up...

No, there aren't.

Nuclear fission certainly has its place. However, the financial aspects that always compromise the design and operation are such that a messy disaster can be expected.

Your false claims are a messy disaster.

The reports of increased birth defects and cancers in areas around nuclear facilities is troubling, and difficult to put a price tag on if true.

What reports? (I mean, a real scientific report, not a newspaper article.)

Tullio I agree anybody that builds a sodium reactor is a nut case if you get a leak , once the sodium hits the air it will ignite and you can't put it out .

That's 3 of these type of reactors now that have caused trouble Detroit , Japan , and France !!

And YO2013 you don't need photovoltaic cells to produce base load power from the sun .

C.S.I.R.O here in oz have only recently announce that they can produce base load steam from solar power so Nuclear is fast becoming a old and dangerous tech to continue to use here on Earth they announced it about 2-3 weeks ago

This is the same organisation that brought you
WIFI
ADSL and many other things including H.A.R.P yes ppl we invented H.A.R.P ozzy's

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France was wise enough to kill the Superphenix fast breeder reactor, paid one fourth by Italy, after it was discovered that the liquid sodium coolant had corroded the steel tubes. At least we avoided a "nuclear excursion" danger similar to the case of the Enrico Fermi fast reactor in Detroit. Read "The day we almost lost Detroit".
Tullio

What a lot of lies... There wasn't any "nuclear excursion" in Detroit. No nuclear material was ever released outside the reactor. Also, there wasn't any corroded steel tubes in Detroit nor Superphenix. The accident of Detroit was caused by a loose zirconium plate that blocked sodium coolant flow. The closure of Superphenix was caused by nucleophobic protests (mostly by the Green Party), not by any accident.

. There is no people living in Fukushima EZ,

this statement is not true there are some ppl still there in fact1 I no of a farmer and is helping the ppl over there with samples and his cattle are being studied as they are showing signs of radiation poisioning he has not yet but radiation takes time

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That's 3 of these type of reactors now that have caused trouble Detroit , Japan , and France !!

Nope. The France reactor didn't cause any trouble. And the Fukushima reactors aren't sodium reactors nor breeder reactors.

Why are people talking so lightly about nuclear power, making statements they didn't check about things and facts they know nothing about?

And YO2013 you don't need photovoltaic cells to produce base load power from the sun .

C.S.I.R.O here in oz have only recently announce that they can produce base load steam from solar power so Nuclear is fast becoming a old and dangerous tech to continue to use here on Earth they announced it about 2-3 weeks ago

This is the same organisation that brought you
WIFI
ADSL and many other things including H.A.R.P yes ppl we invented H.A.R.P ozzy's

What are you talking about?

this statement is not true there are some ppl still there in fact1 I no of a farmer and is helping the ppl over there with samples and his cattle are being studied as they are showing signs of radiation poisioning he has not yet but radiation takes time

AFAIK, there are fines and arrest for people living there:

On 11 April, with ongoing concerns about the stability of the reactors, Japan considered extending the evacuation zone around the Fukushima I.[41] Then, on 21 April 2011, the Japanese government declared a 20-km zone around Daiichi as a "no-go" zone, and threatened anyone who entered or remained in the zone with arrest or detention and fines. The order affected 80,000 residents.[42] Shortly thereafter, on 22 April, the Japanese government officially announced that the evacuation zone would be extended from the 20 km "circular" zone to an irregular zone extending northwest of the Fukushima site.[43] Then, on 16 May, the Japanese government began evacuating people from outside the official exclusion zones, including the village of Iitate, where high levels of radiation had been repeatedly measured.[44][45]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_reaction_to_Fukushima_Daiichi_nuclear_disaster#Evacuations

About radiation poisoning, do you have any proof?

I am very sure the people of Chernobyl and Fukushima will give you some very strong words and feelings for your glib dismissive nonchalance...

I am very sure you don't know what you are talking about. People now in Chernobyl EZ had chosen to live there. Surely, if they have any complaints, they will not live there. ...

... No, there aren't.

Nuclear fission certainly has its place. However, the financial aspects that always compromise the design and operation are such that a messy disaster can be expected.

Your false claims are a messy disaster.

You are either deluded, naive, or just trolling.

Perhaps you should visit Chernobyl and the nearby abandoned city of Pripyat and see for yourself.

Note that people still work at and around the reactors there. The commute is by an enclosed train out onto an enclosed platform to minimise exposure to dust. Everyone is checked continuously in case anything radioactive has been picked up.

And the people there are very proud to keep the power supplies running despite the damage and desolation and death.


Check up on a lot more of the story and then, only then, let us know what you have found.


Take a look at Bhopal and the aftermath there while you are looking. That is another heinous example of corporate profits before safety and the casualties be damned... Ongoing.

Keep searchin',
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

You can't bully people into giving up their fear of nuclear power.

+1

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rOZZ
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And the Fukushima reactors aren't sodium reactors nor breeder reactors

I wasn't talking about Fukushima mate they do have a sodium rector in Japan it's been there for over 20yrs and they have had trouble with it . The same trouble the French would have had sodium leaks as pipes corrode

Take your own advise and do your research go to the C.S.I.R.O web site and you will find out what I'm talking about

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The reports of increased birth defects and cancers in areas around nuclear facilities is troubling, and difficult to put a price tag on if true.

What reports? (I mean, a real scientific report, not a newspaper article.)

Ernest Sternglass, "Low level radiation". Sternglass was a scientist of the Atomic Energy Commission and was charged to research on this subject. What he found frightened him and made him publish this book. Then he was fired.
Tullio

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