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UK Riots
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Author | Message |
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Bernie Vine Send message Joined: 26 May 99 Posts: 9956 Credit: 103,452,613 RAC: 328 |
None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did. How do you know that? Remember a guy was shot an killed in Croydon during the riot. Four black males breaking into a store were very likely to be carrying. But you are correct I did not consider that possibility at the time. |
Orgil Send message Joined: 3 Aug 05 Posts: 979 Credit: 103,527 RAC: 0 |
I guess as usual americans and british are just sliding into typical cultural clashes rather than thoughtful debates. It is the british members who actually feel and taste the reality of this event. For outsiders we can offer only best guessing solutions of this riot or some mini civil war. Mandtugai! |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30903 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
Good point Gary, but from what I heard listening to Fox news the other evening Yes we have riots. Yes we have criminal gangs/thugs. Yes we have horrible unemployment. Fox news went as far as to Not bloody likely. The pressure here is incredible to get the story out. If the press hears about something it will be published here and there are too dang many people with cell phone cameras to ever think any big story is going to be suppressed at all. Faux however needs sensationalism to sell more advertising. Still, the USA Not taken as a dig. What I am telling you it is far to easy to come up with a scape goat of a inanimate object and far to hard to admit you (government policies) are the one at fault. When the Rodney King riot happened cell phones were not ubiquitous and the size of a suitcase. However the gangs were still able to target specific people and businesses for destruction. It isn't the technology that is at fault. It is the conditions that lead to the gangs that is a fault. High unemployment, absentee parents and a huge profit margin on drugs. Crime is more profitable than a job. That is the root cause. We haven't addressed this in the USA. I don't think we have the political will to do so or even the intelligence in the political arena to see that it is the root cause of the problem. There are far too many people whose minds are hermetically sealed. California is in a unique position on this now. It has been ordered to turn out around half the people who are presently in prison. Why? Because California doesn't have the money to build enough prison cells to house all the people its laws make criminals out of. Time to rethink how long sentences should be and what should be a crime. My comment about delayed punishment is important. While the riot is ongoing the important thing is to stop it immediately. The real threat of dead bodies on the street will do that. I just don't think "we will catch you later" has that same effect as a rioter isn't thinking rationally to begin with. [edit]Perhaps my 20 years of hindsight on this isn't what you want to hear right now. |
Gary Charpentier Send message Joined: 25 Dec 00 Posts: 30903 Credit: 53,134,872 RAC: 32 |
None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did. You are right I don't know that. All I know is firearms are much less likely to be available in England. Where as in California firearms are near certain in gang crime. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
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Michael John Hind Send message Joined: 6 Feb 07 Posts: 1330 Credit: 3,632,028 RAC: 0 |
Fox news went as far as to Well, when I heard this media remark I was very surprised too...so I hope too that this was a bit of hype on Fox's behalf. I guess as usual americans and british are just sliding into typical cultural clashes rather than thoughtful debates. Orgil...we each find each others cultures interesting and love experiencing them. Both us and the USA think this world can't survive without them. So isn't it good that we and the USA therefore have something in common. But we don't actually care about commonalities 'cos we just like being friends with each other.. ...'cos you never know whats ahead in the future. |
Uli Send message Joined: 6 Feb 00 Posts: 10923 Credit: 5,996,015 RAC: 1 |
You are right Bernie, nobody knows how you felt inside. I do know adrenalin was rushing through your system. I also know, you weren't thinking about your own safety, but that of the community, when you put the rubbish bins out. The thugs could have still been out there, so I very glad you are physically fine. No doubt this changed you. I hope you will find a way to let laughter back into your life. Pluto will always be a planet to me. Seti Ambassador Not to late to order an Anni Shirt |
Orgil Send message Joined: 3 Aug 05 Posts: 979 Credit: 103,527 RAC: 0 |
.. I know it is some deep ethnological criss crossing going on. Also it helps sharing same language, religion and gene types to criss cross. Mandtugai! |
Michael John Hind Send message Joined: 6 Feb 07 Posts: 1330 Credit: 3,632,028 RAC: 0 |
Riots are a natural occurrence. Progress never follows a straight line for sometimes you can go as much backwards as you have gone forwards. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
None of you stood in the street whilst criminal gangs, thugs and impressionable "hoodies" ransacked your town. I did. I could say the same thing about many points in my life toward everyone else. Does that give me the right to invalidate their opinions simply because I experienced it first hand? Does that somehow entitle me to tell them that they don't know what they're talking about when they may very well know? Sure, you experienced something very, very horrible. Don't push everyone else away who disagrees with your conclusions. This is part of what is supposed to make mankind a better place. I believe that at the moment a large percent of the law abiding public in UK cities would allow the government to bring in ANY measures it deemed necessary to stop these riots and any measures to bring the perpetrators to justice. It's that kind of raw emotion and knee-jerk reaction that keeps us in the dark ages. We must show that we are better than them by still being able to show compassion for them unlike they did for you. That is what makes a stronger person. I am not saying I agree, but I was there and my gut wants retribution whilst my head is trying to work out how we have come to this. Being there and seeing and hearing what was happening has left me torn, unable to concentrate at work, but somehow wanting to help but not knowing where to start, It was terrifying, to say the least. I am very sorry you had to experience what you did. I can only hope you come out a stronger person and not embittered over the situation. Pull through and be strong for all of us. To say that Blackberry Messenger is more important than lives and livelihoods will not go down well in many British cities at the moment. No one here said that Blackberry Messenger is more important than human lives. What we've said is that people use the service legitimately, and you shouldn't punish all for the actions of a few. You shouldn't even punish a few for the actions of the majority. Time is a healer and hopefully the UK will be able to work the problems out. Right now the people who caused this need to know we will not sit by and watch them destroy our communities. Anger is an understandable human emotion. The collective anger in the US after 9/11, or the general unrest after Rodney King in LA surely captured a similar aura here in the states. And I fully agree that the perpetrators need to be made aware of the error in their ways. As Soft^Spirit said, they were only hurting their fellow man and not the rich elite like they thought. Just remember that they are human, and they have their own feelings and anger that they need to sort through. Help them with that. And it will help you with yours. I guarantee it. |
OzzFan Send message Joined: 9 Apr 02 Posts: 15691 Credit: 84,761,841 RAC: 28 |
Fox news went as far as to I agree with Gary yet again. If what Fox said was true, there would be other news agencies ready to break the story. The fact that Fox said they have had to "cover it up" sounds to me like they're trying to instigate something that isn't really there... sort of like starting the spark through the power of suggestion. |
Michael John Hind Send message Joined: 6 Feb 07 Posts: 1330 Credit: 3,632,028 RAC: 0 |
And I fully agree that the perpetrators need to be made aware of the error in their ways. As Soft^Spirit said, they were only hurting their fellow man and not the rich elite like they thought. What reasons did they have to be angry about?. Perhaps angry because they came to realise that the state only supports them to a certain extent. That as soon as they hit early manhood suddenly realised that they were going to have to be dependent on themselves. Angry now, but angry with themselves for not having prepared themselves adequately. Now in emotional shock because they realise that they lack aspirations because they have no tools to use to aspire with. Self denial sets in because the truth about themselves generates depressive thoughts and this stops them from generating constructive solutions to solving their rapidly deteriorating circumstances. Now they stupidly find it antedotal to blame others for their situation, just listen to their un-coherent excuses for having done what they did this week. Put it down to inadequate parental guidance. Put it down also to schools lacking powers to take better control of these type kids early on so that they can control them and guide them if their parents, that's if they have both at home, are failing to do so. Whats now the final solution for them...I suggest that five years in one of our military establishments. Strict discipline to get them focused on themselves and at the same time teach them a trade. It was said that when the UK had National Service it sorted out many a lout and many of these ex-louts were very pleased that they had the experience of the service to straighten them out. We have gone through the experience of letting social workers exercise their philosophies on these louts by having "hug a hoody" sessions and that we must spend time trying to understand them. This is not the solution, the correct solution is to get them to understand themselves. The best place to recondition them for a better life would be a constructive period in the services. Not only will they come to understand themselves here but also to start to be able to value themselves too. And to value yourself then you'll get no better training in this than from that coming from any of our services. |
Es99 Send message Joined: 23 Aug 05 Posts: 10874 Credit: 350,402 RAC: 0 |
Chris, if England goes ahead with this, do not be surprised if England is placed on a list of repressive countries with which the USA will not do business. The true extent of the problems have been suppressed in the UK media for a long time time, with certain boroughs not wanting it to be known just how bad the gang problem among the youth has become. Those of us who were working in frontline services with these youths are totally unsurprised by what we saw on the streets of London in the last week. I can even take a very educated guess as to which of my former students were out there rioting (and which ones weren't). I taught these kids for years. It was damn hard as I was going up against their antagonistic attitude to all authority. People here talk about being able to use corporal punishment as if that would work. Lol. 90% of these kids will have been physically abused at home (don't phone home to so and so's parents or they'll beat him/her and put them in hospital). A good beating doesn't seem to have done them any good. They will have come from homes were drug abuse and alcohol abuse are common. I've met some of their parents and realised just what an uphill battle it will be to get them to invest in their education. I've known the brightest saddest of them who are involved in gangs and don't know how to get out (it's hard when your whole family is), so many of them are angry and full of bravado and the FU attitude but underneath they are just jelly. They are surrounded by adults who don't care or just use them. The police are the enemy. I know these kids and because I know them I can't think that writing them off is the right answer. Condemn what they do, not who they are. I know they can be absolute little sh*ts, but I also know they can be better, I've seen what happens when someone takes and interest and tries to help them. Reality Internet Personality |
Michael John Hind Send message Joined: 6 Feb 07 Posts: 1330 Credit: 3,632,028 RAC: 0 |
The true extent of the problems have been suppressed in the UK media for a long time time, with certain boroughs not wanting it to be known just how bad the gang problem among the youth has become. Those of us who were working in frontline services with these youths are totally unsurprised by what we saw on the streets of London in the last week. I can even take a very educated guess as to which of my former students were out there rioting (and which ones weren't). We know how bad it is, we know how many of them are killing each other using knives and the occasional guns too. It not a case of our media not reporting the facts but a case of it all now becoming so matter of fact that it's stopped getting the full media attention that it should really be getting. |
GalaxyIce Send message Joined: 13 May 06 Posts: 8927 Credit: 1,361,057 RAC: 0 |
Condemn what they do, not who they are. I know they can be absolute little sh*ts, but I also know they can be better, I've seen what happens when someone takes and interest and tries to help them. I agree with this totally. The law is clear and punishments for breaking the law are clearly stated in our societies. You do the crime and you pay with the sentence a court decides. No one is punished for who they are, not in England at least, but for what they have done. Yes, as a society we should help those who want that help. For those who will not be helped, spurn that help and choose crime as a way to exist amongst us; they will continue to face the court's decisions. flaming balloons |
GalaxyIce Send message Joined: 13 May 06 Posts: 8927 Credit: 1,361,057 RAC: 0 |
This petition is back up, over 120,000 signatories to date Here's another link; http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337 flaming balloons |
Uli Send message Joined: 6 Feb 00 Posts: 10923 Credit: 5,996,015 RAC: 1 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=wDa4DjhjgXY Pluto will always be a planet to me. Seti Ambassador Not to late to order an Anni Shirt |
kittyman Send message Joined: 9 Jul 00 Posts: 51477 Credit: 1,018,363,574 RAC: 1,004 |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=wDa4DjhjgXY Uli....hon. There is a vast difference between the Vietnam protests....people protesting against a specific war...and what has been going on in the UK. If the inane little brats think that destroying things and looting is going to improve their lot in life, they are as stupid and lawless as they seem. As far as I am concerned.....any action the government takes against them are fully warranted. "Time is simply the mechanism that keeps everything from happening all at once." |
Uli Send message Joined: 6 Feb 00 Posts: 10923 Credit: 5,996,015 RAC: 1 |
Mark, I came across this by accident and thought it was relevant. Maybe not relevant to you, but it helps me understand, the history of the USA. Pluto will always be a planet to me. Seti Ambassador Not to late to order an Anni Shirt |
soft^spirit Send message Joined: 18 May 99 Posts: 6497 Credit: 34,134,168 RAC: 0 |
There was a small riot in Chico California. As near as anyone can figure out it was over Tastes great vs. less filling.(old beer commercial). There is not always method to madness. Janice |
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