Angstrom said:
If we accept that most or all societies seem to have a basic ethical structure which are very similar then one question we could ask is "would those ethical values be the same if no religion had ever existed"?
NeoAmsterdam added:
As Voltaire said, "Even if God did not exist, man would have to invent Him".

My answer is that the ethical values are either self-evident or divinely inspired; in either case, religion exists to codify those values. That, to me, is the basic reason for religion and its major value. Voltaire was right: we have to create “God” as the source of societal (ethical/ moral) values.

Angstrom said:
It seems to me that in most religous systems there is a common thread of "if you do this bad thing" then "this punishmnet will be dealt out". Therefore we see the basis of all the worlds legal systems ie the discouragent of crime is based upon the fear of a penalty. Of course it doesnt always work that way!!

Ethics are the rules governing the moral behavior of a society. It seems to me that religions have been, for millennia, the major source of ethical teaching, so it makes sense to me that our legal system (criminal and civil) draws from the ethical teaching of religion. As a prosecutor, I am aware that some will do “right” despite the law; some will do “wrong” despite the law; but just as important, some will only do “right” because of fear of being caught. This group is the main reason for having laws, and I agree, most laws are based on religious teaching.

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> Please be advised, as I agreed to replace someone working with someone I know,
> for the next 3-5 days, installing a video-surveillance system in a large
> retail outlet, which can only be installed between the hours of 21:00 and
> 06:00; I will not have much of a chance, after this morning, to monitor any
> fora until the person I replace returns.

That says so much yet it's so cryptic..

> As Voltaire said, "Even if God did not exist, man would have to invent Him".
> The origin of God can probably be traced as far back as 750,000 BCE, which are
> the earliest known burials with spiritual overtones. I would suggest that
> perhaps God was invented at that time to explain post-mortem issues.

This and all your post is excellent. Chapeau !

> Tom,
> Don't sell yourself short. I had not a clue most of the time what was going
> on. Maybe we can start a Thread for Ex Navy?
Oooh. I've worked/work with many ex-Navy guys and they always have the best stories to tell.

There's been plenty of testimonials on this thread
Why is Rocky's objectionable?
Was he looking to convert somebody?
Testifying is probaly a universal trait in faith groups
Some folks here have no faith and no group but testify anyway
Thats good
This is a religious thread so it's OK...cc

> There's been plenty of testimonials on this thread
> Why is Rocky's objectionable?
> Was he looking to convert somebody?
> Testifying is probaly a universal trait in faith groups
> Some folks here have no faith and no group but testify anyway
> Thats good
> This is a religious thread so it's OK...cc
>

Well, CC, he was preaching in such a way that it was clear that non-believers were excluded from the grace he spoke about. That is not the purpose of this thread. But his last few posts seem neutral enough.

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Of course non believers are excluded from getting any of That grace stuff that he talks about.
And somebody else might deprive those thay consider non believers of some other mystery dust agent.
Rocky believes we're all damned unless.......... thats OK with me.
Fanatics are part of life.
Zealots cant be nueutral anyway.

Since Rachel, Richard, Tom, et al. have been reminding us that the goal of this thread is to opine on religion, I decided to take the initiative.

You know that feeling where you want to punch someone out of love for that person? It's WW&Co.

Dragon

Your unfortunate lapse into invective ,In my opinion, totally destroyed the impact you might have made, the facts could have spoken for themselves.

The Admiral

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Dave Nelson

Dragon

To begin with, I'm on your side. I too lost, or more accurately, never developed the faith that my elders tried to push on me. I had a pretty happy childhood despite the fact that I had a father who didn't like to work so didn't. My Mother went out and cleaned other peoples houses to put food on the table while Dad relaxed at the VFW club. We were on welfare right up to the start of WW2, but so were a lot of other people.

The point I'm trying to make is that you have allowed WW to manipulate you, you have allowed him to anger you to the point where you lost your cool. That sanctiminous arrogant bigot is probably laughing at you. Calm down, get hold of yourself. Don't let him win. If nothing else, don't read his posts, he has nothing new to say. He isn't answering my questions either.

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Dave Nelson

Dragon,
If The subject was not already weighing heavy on your heart and your own personal convictions, it would not have enraged you directly.
No Ones Laughing!

Very Sincerely,

Rocky Cudd

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www.boincsynergy.com

Hey Rocky-
Sorry to see your neat USN avatar replaced.
I've seen alot of depictions of religious icons of many stripes but never before a modified C-clamp device associated with a faith group. Could you explain the significance of this object shown on your cybercult link?
Happy Veterans Day -remember when the vets used to give out little paper poppy pins in the street?...cc

> As the Prophet Jeremiah wrote:
>
> "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know
> it?" Jeremiah 17:9, KJV

WOW that was quite a quote !!!!
God are we lucky that we had these prophets ?
lol Poor WW I feel so sorry for you, really.

> Hey Rocky-
> Sorry to see your neat USN avatar replaced.
> I've seen alot of depictions of religious icons of many stripes but never
> before a modified C-clamp device associated with a faith group. Could you
> explain the significance of this object shown on your cybercult link?
> Happy Veterans Day -remember when the vets used to give out little paper poppy
> pins in the street?...cc

Carl,
Yes I too liked my USN Avatar, and will use it again, but come on...cybercult link?. I don't take pot shots, and thought you too were beyond that.
Anyway, I don't remember the pins in the street, I am going to have to go over some of my Navy "Year Books".
Happy Veterns Day.

Regards,

Rocky

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www.boincsynergy.com

>The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

My 2 year old grandaugter is already exhibiting alot of wickedness and vile deceitful behavior. I figured it was just my daughter spoiling her a bit but I'm happy to know it's only all the natural filth that God made sure she was born with. Can she be saved? Or must I wring it out of her with regular beatings before she grows into a crackhead harlot?

> >The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can
> know it?
>
> My 2 year old grandaugter is already exhibiting alot of wickedness and vile
> deceitful behavior. I figured it was just my daughter spoiling her a bit but
> I'm happy to know it's only all the natural filth that God made sure she was
> born with. Can she be saved? Or must I wring it out of her with regular
> beatings before she grows into a crackhead harlot?
>

Carl,
Remember the saying, "When you have kids, I hope they are just like you"?
Is that the case here. Morals, Values, obdience and disipline are instilled in our children before they reach the age of accountability. We can only hope and pray that the morals and values that we instill in our children through the vision of how we live our lives, will be a reflection and direction in there own lives.

Regards,

Rocky

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www.boincsynergy.com