Even if it's possible - even if was infinitesimally small in mass and duration, is the goal to say "we did it and found/created x, y & z - we'll research those now or use the info to understand a, b and c better."

What practical applications could be created from a transient micro "black hole" generator, if any?

Even if it's possible - even if was infinitesimally small in mass and duration, is the goal to say "we did it and found/created x, y & z - we'll research those now or use the info to understand a, b and c better."

What practical applications could be created from a transient micro "black hole" generator, if any?

If you're talking about the LHC...

It's an exploration of another energy range in particle physics. What is found in the results, whether expected or unexpected, should give physics another kick of new ideas to hopefully make the next jump since the days of Einstein. At the moment, particle physics is a little stymied until new data can be collected to prove/disprove various theories to then gain further understanding.

If any "micro black holes" were actually to be formed, I'm sure there would be great excitement surrounding them from everyone!

Shame the press don't have any idea what a "micro black hole" is! Or why it is something that we would 'often' see in our atmosphere if they were to exist...

We're still here so no worries on that one!


More of a concern are the various lumps of lose rocks floating around outside of our atmosphere... (NEOs)

Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

What practical applications... if any?

It is all a fundamental part of our modern science that has shaped our entire modern way of life, from nuclear bombs to nuclear power sources, materials, medicine, electronics (computers), and most of what our "high tech" is based upon.

You never know, we may find something in the data that then leads us on to yet more new things...

One hope is that a better understanding might be gained to help with fusion power here on earth... Who knows unless we look?

Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Even if it's possible - even if was infinitesimally small in mass and duration, is the goal to say "we did it and found/created x, y & z - we'll research those now or use the info to understand a, b and c better."

What practical applications could be created from a transient micro "black hole" generator, if any?

If you're talking about the LHC...

It's an exploration of another energy range in particle physics. What is found in the results, whether expected or unexpected, should give physics another kick of new ideas to hopefully make the next jump since the days of Einstein. At the moment, particle physics is a little stymied until new data can be collected to prove/disprove various theories to then gain further understanding.

If any "micro black holes" were actually to be formed, I'm sure there would be great excitement surrounding them from everyone!

Shame the press don't have any idea what a "micro black hole" is! Or why it is something that we would 'often' see in our atmosphere if they were to exist...

We're still here so no worries on that one!
----------

I wasn't concerned about the apocalyptic hype.

Until we can conduct research "into the unknown" far from earth, someone has to "press the button" (take the risk) to get the research done that will get us there

What practical applications... if any?

It is all a fundamental part of our modern science that has shaped our entire modern way of life, from nuclear bombs to nuclear power sources, materials, medicine, electronics (computers), and most of what our "high tech" is based upon.

You never know, we may find something in the data that then leads us on to yet more new things...

One hope is that a better understanding might be gained to help with fusion power here on earth... Who knows unless we look?

This is along the lines of what I was wondering about. I'm assuming the first attempt(s), if successful, would produce little more than data on the physics involved. LHC is a massively expensive project and system, but tho peer-reviewed journals delve into the science, I've never seen news like "based on collider research 8 years ago, which led to this development, that effort, this undertaking - we now have secure digital communications based on electron alignment" or similar.

I'd like to tho, but somewhere between the project findings and practical application, fusion in your example - that missing timespan of info and progress in practical or other scientific endeavors doesn't seem to show up - wish it did, or I knew where to look.

It would really be interesting if they created a micro black hole ,but to my analysis thats a dream because many will urgue about that i can tell you with certainty that all matter in our universe is created from two basic particles positrons and electron ,which is actually the same particle with opposite charge .Its the existence of this particle combination in different enviroments that determines everything from the nucleus to photons from electromagnetism to gravity. I know many will say its a bogus staff just wait and see i will be proved right. If you some how believe me and want to know more or want to add more to test me i will post my blog below, its for free i ask nothing in return just to advance science in the right direction.If you dont believe me you will some day when no black holes or higs bosons will be found for that i a sure you.

andromeda blog

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We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

... I'm assuming the first attempt(s), if successful, would produce little more than data on the physics involved. LHC is a massively expensive project and system, but tho peer-reviewed journals delve into the science, I've never seen news like "based on collider research 8 years ago, which led to this development, that effort, this undertaking - we now have secure digital communications based on electron alignment" or similar.

... - that missing timespan of info and progress in practical or other scientific endeavors doesn't seem to show up - wish it did, or I knew where to look.

You don't see that because scientists and engineers don't care if an idea is a few seconds old or a few thousand years old. If the idea works, it works. Who cares who from, from where, or when. (Unless that is you're a patents or licensing troll out for a quick profitable kill at everyone else's expense...)

You appear to be asking about how various ideas and discoveries are connected to some tangible result like "the motor car" (via Otto's engine for example) or whatever.

That is a highly intertwined and turgid area called history!

Take a look at Wikipedia: Scientific Revolution as a start. There's many books on various development threads to show the connections between developments and then how those developments were used.

Science is a wide mix of directed research and pure serendipity and amazingly diligent attention to detail!


Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

~~
You appear to be asking about how various ideas and discoveries are connected to some tangible result like "the motor car" (via Otto's engine for example) or whatever.
~~

Thanks Martin - I digressed a bit and hijacked my own thread, apologies - what I'm wanting to do is follow the LCH "black hole" research, not just through the news, journals and discovery channel on success/fail, but where it goes from there (assuming success).

I agree - it's history. There are plenty of books and ref materials around on the manhattan project and fission/fusion research and weaponization and energy research, culled over a 50+ year timespan by various authors. Same for many thousand others that stretch back thru far longer timespans.

It just seems by now there would be a foundation, mechanism, something, tracking research like this cradle to cradle (or grave, on temporary/permanent dead ends). Success or fail, (assuming success) this is, from my perspective, the opportunity for the single greatest leap in physics ever - a singularity (no pun intended).

I would assume an institute like RAND or any of the high-end intel agencies would have that data breadcrumb trail, but I don't think they'd send me info on the basis of curiosity.

For starters tho - other than is it possible, or very focused pure-as-possible scientific reasons - what long range goal or motive, if any, is driving this LHC project. I mean, LHC physicists and research sciences may be happy as can be with each success or failure - but they're not paying the electric bill @ LHC.

Starting to digress again

I'll keep crunching in the meantime.

Best,

Steve

~~
It would really be interesting if they created a micro black hole ,but to my analysis thats a dream because many will urgue about that i can tell you with certainty that all matter in our universe is created from two basic particles positrons and electron
~~

Thank you for your reply - I admire your firm position on the subject(s).

Fermilab's reason for no credibility to the Higgs Boson seems based on (or excused by) the Tevatron being far from adequate for the research, compared to the LHC.

I remain openminded tho, would like to see success, but even failure is success.

That's about the most solid ground I will take a stand on - (that any research or theory is simultaneously right and wrong, or perhaps simultaneously correct and incorrect are better terms). I can only aim/hope for good enough, and take it from there.

Your theory is interesting, but I won't rule out success in other research anymore than I would rule out your own, being proven right.

We may or may not see it in the same way, I suppose, but I do thank you for the feedback.

Thanks steve !

---

We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

~~
You appear to be asking about how various ideas and discoveries are connected to some tangible result like "the motor car" (via Otto's engine for example) or whatever.
~~

... - what I'm wanting to do is follow the LCH "black hole" research, not just through the news, journals and discovery channel on success/fail, but where it goes from there (assuming success).

I agree - it's history. ...

OK...

So, ancient Man undertakes some pure research and develops a round disc that rolls far more easily than a log. Many years later when horses have been domesticated, and a few other bits 'n' bobs 'n' developments added, the "horse drawn carraige" is devised. A few years later, a mechanical horse unit is bolted onto the carraige to create the motorised-carraige... A few more years later we all have cars and develop Global Warming as a by-product.

It just seems by now there would be a foundation, mechanism, something, tracking research like this cradle to cradle (or grave, on temporary/permanent dead ends).

The Smithsonian?

Or do you envisage the exponential growth in data and the history of that data to lead into paralysis and stagnation as explored by the Foundation Series (Isaac Asimov)?

Success or fail, (assuming success) this is, from my perspective, the opportunity for the single greatest leap in physics ever - a singularity (no pun intended).

One failing of the present process of research publications is that failures and dead ends are NOT published... Only positive results unless there is some great significance in publishing the presently explored limits that restrict or confine the existence of a positive result.

There's a phenominal amount of work done that doesn't work that noone has heard of to know not to wastefully repeat it! Or to be able to learn from what doesn't work. I think the most famous example of that must be Richard Feynman's scrutiny of ALL the data for Shuttle launches for when erosion of the SRB o-rings did AND ALSO DID NOT occur and the revelation from that...

... what long range goal or motive, if any, is driving this LHC project. ...

Did the ancient wheelwright ever imagine all the things we've done with his wheel since the days of the first humble wheel-barrow? Let alone that someone called Babbage used those wheels to design a general purpose computer!

How clear is your crystal ball?

Keep searchin',
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

How clear is your crystal ball?

Barring a few moments of clarity that seem to confuse and worry friends and family - as clear as the dye in a Magic 8 ball, I will admit, without shame :-)

Did the ancient wheelwright ever imagine all the things we've done with his wheel since the days of the first humble wheel-barrow? Let alone that someone called Babbage used those wheels to design a general purpose computer!

Thank you for this reference, I was not aware of Babbage's Mechanical computer of the 1800s. It was a worthy little romp through history this morning that helped me understand a few things unrelated to this conversation.

One failing of the present process of research publications is that failures and dead ends are NOT published... Only positive results unless there is some great significance in publishing the presently explored limits that restrict or confine the existence of a positive result.

I would tend to agree, and would prefer to see more. Many of the "fails" are dead-ends, but I suspect many are merely "cold cases" chalked up as fails - in either case, I do not always see them as failures, even if categorized as such. I really only view "suppressed" fails to be flawed, but not due to the failure.

There's a phenominal amount of work done that doesn't work that noone has heard of to know not to wastefully repeat it! Or to be able to learn from what doesn't work. I think the most famous example of that must be Richard Feynman's scrutiny of ALL the data for Shuttle launches for when erosion of the SRB o-rings did AND ALSO DID NOT occur and the revelation from that...

Similar to the prior comment - yes, these situations do arise even if there is research available - Challenger and Columbia are both different situations but similar flaws (in either case, it appears the flaw was management and politics). The latter disaster was about the time I stopped using the term "expert" in favor of "professional".

On topic tho, LHC and the Fermilab's Tevatron appear to be working in "fresh" turf with regards to HB's and "black holes" - tho it's entirely possible unrelated research has already provided data that could be useful, but was previously proven false, or made unavailable.

It just seems by now there would be a foundation, mechanism, something, tracking research like this cradle to cradle (or grave, on temporary/permanent dead ends).

The Smithsonian?

Or do you envisage the exponential growth in data and the history of that data to lead into paralysis and stagnation as explored by the Foundation Series (Isaac Asimov)?

I wasn't referring to the Smithsonian no - tho it would be an ideal cover for a larger agency or information "foundation" (I'd say that's venturing into science fiction tho.)

I was referring something very unlikely to happen - collating data on research stored in fairly accessible formats from well-known or little known agencies or foundations around the world thru just the time of their existence - KGB, CIA, NSA, RAND (a private, foundation-based info/analysis agency, largely serving US military needs), MI6, etc. to military/corporate, and similar entities - as well as publicly accessible data.

That data, if accessible, would likely provide projects like LHC's "black hole" and HB research with a wealth of information, ranging from "don't bother, we've already done it, this is what we're using it for" to "here are the 1001 ways we've not gotten results".

This "collaboration" would vastly accelerate science - tho the transparency required could cause a variety of other problems (political, personal and more).

In a sense, I suppose your reference to Asimov's "Foundation" series might not be a bad one - it's something that should exist, now that we have the means to do so, or at least begin laying the framework. I can't think of a "wheel" that would prompt the transfer of the bulk of known but insular data mentioned above to such a "foundation" tho.

Apologies for straying largely off topic, tho these figurative "black holes" of info on what may have already been accomplished is possibly the more important topic.

Pour mes amis francophones--->Journey to the heart of a black hole (French original version)

Transcription/translation into English ---->here/ici
Voyage au coeur d´un trou noir

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