Mark....
I must say I agree totally with your first posting in this thread. The politicians had better start doing something. Opening up offshore drilling would just be a first step. We need more refineries here in the USA also. I see that McCain has called for 45 new nuke electrical plants to be built, also badly needed.

Open up the arctic for drilling but also there is oil here in the continental US to be had. Check out Phoenix Wyoming. They claim that they have proven 2 trillion barrels of oil (equal to 8 times the oil reserves of Saudi Arabia) in Wyoming, Colorado and Utah. What the politicians now call "fly over country" may just become the most important real estate in the US.

just use less oil, now

One of the major problems that you people over in Europe just are not able to wrap your heads around is with the land mass the size that the United States has and with the population as spread out as it is, distribution of food and other goods is a significant percentage of the fuel consumption. It is not just individuals, but trucking fleets, planes, and even diesel trains that are contributing to the consumption. It's all nice to have a bumper sticker slogan like "use less oil, now", but it just doesn't work that way given the realities of certain things that you Europeans just don't consider, as in it is more than just cars/light trucks/SUVs that are consuming gas.

Additionally, there are a large number of households here who have "heating oil" as their heat source in the Winter. Conversion to natural gas would be an option for some, but who is going to pay for it? In any case, that will not happen "now".

What this country needs is for people to stop being afraid of nuclear power and R&D money and/or tax breaks need to be given for developing new fuels and cleaner burning / more efficient fuels that come from domestic sources.

None of this can happen "now". Individuals can help by not driving as much, but it really won't make that big of a dent because of the freight transportation...

Oh, and I forgot to mention that many chemical production processes are dependent upon oil as well. So this concept of "use less" is so easy to say, but so difficult to actually do...

thank you for clever and accurate answer, which in places was to a point, but 250 million people with about 1, something car per person, which uses more fuel than they would need to bring the person a from point a to the point a again is, let me calculate umm... too much, smaller engine would do easily, and add that to 250 mill..., just too much waste, and that we in europe can understand easily, how ´bout you

( wolkswagen get 180 bhp from 1,4 litre engine easily for normal small car)

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

thank you for clever and accurate answer, which in places was to a point, but 250 million people with about 1, something car per person, which uses more fuel than they would need to bring the person a from point a to the point a again is, let me calculate umm... too much, smaller engine would do easily, and add that to 250 mill..., just too much waste, and that we in europe can understand easily, how ´bout you

( wolkswagen get 180 bhp from 1,4 litre engine easily for normal small car)

I do not deny that people in this country are way too much into light trucks and SUVs. That's why I get irritated at some people who complain about the price of gas when they own something that is not very fuel efficient. I own a Toyota Avalon, which is not a super-efficient car, but is definitely better than many other cars here.

However, again, there is a huge amount of consumption in the freight/cargo business here that is not under the direct control of the average citizen here.

" Use less oil...now ". Fabulous idea...but as Brian pointed out....our entire country ( for the most part ) relies on shipping via ' over the road ' trucking.

As he also pointed out...there are a lot of people driving trucks and SUVs that get terrible gas mileage.

Two days ago, I bought a new ( to me ) car. Wanna know why I didn't get a hybrid or an electric car?? I can't afford one. Plain and simple. What I did do, was get the most fuel efficient car that I could actually afford, and also get the financing for. What I wound up with was a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix that gets around 30 miles to the gallon on the highway. The saleslady was trying to talk me into buying a 2001 GMC Z71 4 wheel drive that was quite a bit cheaper than the Grand Prix, but I refused to buy it based on the fact that it would only get about 18 mpg with a stiff tailwind.

Wanna sit there and piss and moan about how much my " gas hog " is creating problems and how I am wasting gas?? Hand me enough money to go buy a hybrid. Until you do ( and I am not referring to anyone in particular, but to all the hand wringers in general ) shut up and deal with the problem in your own ways.

I, like MANY other people, will do what we can within our financial limitations. That is the best that ANYONE could expect.

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

" Use less oil...now ". Fabulous idea...but as Brian pointed out....our entire country ( for the most part ) relies on shipping via ' over the road ' trucking.

As he also pointed out...there are a lot of people driving trucks and SUVs that get terrible gas mileage.

Two days ago, I bought a new ( to me ) car. Wanna know why I didn't get a hybrid or an electric car?? I can't afford one. Plain and simple. What I did do, was get the most fuel efficient car that I could actually afford, and also get the financing for. What I wound up with was a 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix that gets around 30 miles to the gallon on the highway. The saleslady was trying to talk me into buying a 2001 GMC Z71 4 wheel drive that was quite a bit cheaper than the Grand Prix, but I refused to buy it based on the fact that it would only get about 18 mpg with a stiff tailwind.

Wanna sit there and piss and moan about how much my " gas hog " is creating problems and how I am wasting gas?? Hand me enough money to go buy a hybrid. Until you do ( and I am not referring to anyone in particular, but to all the hand wringers in general ) shut up and deal with the problem in your own ways.

I, like MANY other people, will do what we can within our financial limitations. That is the best that ANYONE could expect.

modern cars from europe and japan can make much better mileage per gallon, actually i am referring litres as you should too, it is metric system, and funnily it makes more sense.

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

Whatever system is used is not really the issue, it is the fuel consumption (however that is expressed - miles per gallon; litres per 100 kilometres).

The big difference in philosophy between Europe and North America relates to how cheap the fuel has been until now. This is irrelevant of the distances covered, and Europe has distance as well as the States.

In the US, until now, fuel was cheap and fuel consumption did not figure prominently in the vehicles built. In Europe where the fuel has traditionally been taxed quite highly fuel consumption is important, as well as top speed and general performance. But to achieve this the vehicles are more expensive.

So, more European cars are now offered for sale in the States, but I understand they tend to be premium priced (hence Knightmare's comments hold true).

However, for a medium sized car (a VW Passat, say) -

a fully loaded 5 seater in the States definition of a compact -

Europeans tend to choose the diesel (2 litres), which moves from 0 mph to 62.5 mph in around 8 seconds, top speed of the order of 135mph. The fuel consumption around town will top 35mpg and on a long run exceed 52mpg.

These cars will cross the USA without trouble and in full climate controlled comfort.

These are the cars, new and second hand, available to European buyers.

But, then if you are getting used to paying $11.50 per gallon, rather than ~$5.00, the fuel consumption becomes more important.

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

Ummm.....VW.com shows the cheapest and most fuel efficient 2009 Passat starting at $23,990 and is only rated for 21mpg city 29mpg hwy. Obviously a used one would be cheaper, but the older the engine, the less efficiently it's going to run, thus lowering your total mpg even further.

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Ummm.....VW.com shows the cheapest and most fuel efficient 2009 Passat starting at $23,990 and is only rated for 21mpg city 29mpg hwy. Obviously a used one would be cheaper, but the older the engine, the less efficiently it's going to run, thus lowering your total mpg even further.

BrainSmasher

You are referring to old technology - petrol.

If you want access to the performance of petrol without the pollution or fuel consumption you will need to go the way Europe has gone - diesel.

Cleaner fuel, cleaner exhaust (subject to NOx), no capability to commit suicide by exhaust gas (CO production is virtually nil) and at least as good performance.

The figures I quoted were for a 2 litre TDI are correct. The petrol will be of the order you quote.

You need to stop being a petrol head


The main automotive advantage US cars have over the European ones is price. Your prices are about 50% to 60% of the UK price, but the build quality of these cars falls well behind that expected over here.

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It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues

The main automotive advantage US cars have over the European ones is price. Your prices are about 50% to 60% of the UK price, but the build quality of these cars falls well behind that expected over here.

I have to agree with you there...did a little more research and cars in the UK with the motor your talking about start at 18,165pounds. That converts to nearly $36,000 for a plain Jane Passat.

Wonder why they don't offer that model over here...lol

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The main automotive advantage US cars have over the European ones is price. Your prices are about 50% to 60% of the UK price, but the build quality of these cars falls well behind that expected over here.

I have to agree with you there...did a little more research and cars in the UK with the motor your talking about start at 18,165pounds. That converts to nearly $36,000 for a plain Jane Passat.

Wonder why they don't offer that model over here...lol

cause you rather drive cars with big and lazy engine, suspencion which is good for sofa, not a car, brakes that will stop your car as long as you are driving in runaway,once you drive proper car you wanna know why you wasted your life
with sofa that doesn´t drive well and which fuel efficiency is like a joke.

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

Many of the "european cars" are available here. It's true that all variants are not imported by manufacturers to the US. The VW TDI was available here. We are now getting the dumb "SMART" car here too. Your cars are not expensive due to using smaller engines for fuel efficiency. They are more expensive because your governments tax them to the gills--possibly based on engine size. In Iran even the smallest model Mercedes carried a tax of around 300 %.

We can buy the Honda fit, the Toyota Yaris, and the Nissan Versa and others that would get mileage of around 40 MPG. These cars are now becoming more in demand due to the quadrupling of gas prices over the past year or so. They cost around $15,000 more or less with all taxes paid.

Diesel engines were big polluters over here --ton's of soot, Sulphur and NOX. We have cleaned up our requirements for diesel and put emission standards in place that require a catalyst that uses UREA. We might see more small turbo-diesels in the future for autos-they are a good idea . Right now though the new fuel refining standards have created a shortage of diesel and raised the price by about a 25% premium over gasoline in the United States.

I think that electric cars with a small turbo diesel for backup and long trips are the way to for the future. We need battery advancements and cost reduction as well as favorable --over night electrical rates as well.

As soon as a big manufacturer here starts delivering such a vehicle in quantity --the price of oil will likely drop in half virtually over night.

you speak true but the current trend has been to byu suv, which is roughly
the size of bus but you get only 4 people in it and maybe a dog, or shopping bags, you decide.

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

you speak true but the current trend has been to byu suv, which is roughly
the size of bus but you get only 4 people in it and maybe a dog, or shopping bags, you decide.

My 1996 Buick Century will seat 6....4 comfortably, and it's only a mid-sized car.





Once again, one of us is clearly wrong, and I have evidence...

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Umm...that " new " car I just bought is a Pontiac Grand Prix and it's designed to seat 5. Plus it gets a little over 30mpg. It's also considered a " mid size " car.

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

you speak true but the current trend has been to byu suv, which is roughly
the size of bus but you get only 4 people in it and maybe a dog, or shopping bags, you decide.

Actually, the current trend is heading toward smaller vehicles.

There are SUV's that seat more than 4 people. 6, 7, and 8 seaters are available.

________________________

High priced fuel is making Americans (in general) start down the path of smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles following the lead of several other countries.

High priced crude = high priced gasoline = smaller vehicles;
High taxes imposed on fuel = high priced gasoline = smaller vehicles

same difference

-edit- clarification

it was about the time

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

________________________

High priced fuel is making Americans (in general) start down the path of smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles following the lead of several other countries.

High priced crude = high priced gasoline = smaller vehicles;
High taxes imposed on fuel = high priced gasoline = smaller vehicles

same difference

-edit- clarification[/quote]

it was about the time[/quote]







you just don´t get it, of course you can byu a bus if you want, but i have been in suv´s which are big, big but when you go inside, even mid sized normal car is more spacious. ärsyttävää kun ihminen ei ymmärrä omaa parastaan vaan käyttäytyy huonosti kaikesta huolimatta.

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

________________________

High priced fuel is making Americans (in general) start down the path of smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles following the lead of several other countries.

High priced crude = high priced gasoline = smaller vehicles;
High taxes imposed on fuel = high priced gasoline = smaller vehicles

same difference

-edit- clarification

it was about the time

you just don´t get it, of course you can byu a bus if you want, but i have been in suv´s which are big, big but when you go inside, even mid sized normal car is more spacious. ärsyttävää kun ihminen ei ymmärrä omaa parastaan vaan käyttäytyy huonosti kaikesta huolimatta.

If this is what you're trying to say then try to say it in English...

annoying when the person does not understand their own best, but behaving badly in spite of everything.

...otherwise it might be misunderstood.

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you just don´t get it, of course you can byu a bus if you want, but i have been in suv´s which are big, big but when you go inside, even mid sized normal car is more spacious. ärsyttävää kun ihminen ei ymmärrä omaa parastaan vaan käyttäytyy huonosti kaikesta huolimatta.[/quote]

If this is what you're trying to say then try to say it in English...

annoying when the person does not understand their own best, but behaving badly in spite of everything.

...otherwise it might be misunderstood.[/quote]



phew, at last,great that was well done, it is just that i write better in finnish, quite naturally, and sometimes i just wanna do that, but as you have shown it is easily translated, would have used word irritating
( here is another one, tyttö kuvassa on kaunis, tunnetko hänet?)

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes

(here is another one, tyttö kuvassa on kaunis, tunnetko hänet?)

The picture/avatar is really me.

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congratulations.

internet is really slow right now so i think i will go out for beer or two,
ja toivottavasti tapaan jonkun noin kauniin, or then not, normally not.


(who is to guard the guards themselves? hmm.. their supervisor?)
(

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"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exist elsewhere in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin to the Hobbes