I don't feel the need to include a civics lesson covering the rest of the world when discussing the US

Topics about America ALWAYS seem to get diverted elsewhere... ;)

For example: The Truth Be Told

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I think Admiral Yamamoto said it best " I fear we have awoken a sleeping giant"

Since Korea, it seems every nation on this planet has had a pop at the USA.

I have come across many Brits who have stated that Britain could have won WWII without the Yanks. I don't think so, without Lend-Lease & the voluntary manpower, even though it was an illegal act, the men & women of America came to our aid.

What has this to do with this thread?

SIMPLE...look into the history of WWII. Men & Women dying most painfully & horribly in torpedoed ships, what were the unions doing?

Look it up on google, yahoo etc etc etc etc etc!

When unions 1st came into being, they were a godsend to the workers, for the last 40 years, they have been parasites.

Nuff said.

---

When unions 1st came into being, they were a godsend to the workers, for the last 40 years, they have been parasites.

Not to be confused with the government parasites nor the corporate parasites... ;)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Not to be confused with the government parasites nor the corporate parasites... ;)

No, we musn't. Just lump them all together, stick them on a prison ship, let it sail, then have the navy torpedo it.

The ordinary workers just don't stand a chance.

---

When unions 1st came into being, they were a godsend to the workers, for the last 40 years, they have been parasites.
Nuff said.

This is one of the points brought always forward by the corporate PR drives against unions.
Make no mistake about this. The corporate powers have been on a full frontal assault against unions since the end of WWII, using every means within their control.
This includes newspaper editorials, television and radio news.
Hell, the corporation I worked for for 17 years was found to have stooges posting in a union only message board during a lock-out.
Guess who they sounded like? Don't RUSH, I'll give you a moment to consider.

They always start off with a recognition of the usefullness of unions...way back when, but end with the same conclusion that unions are outdated or corrupt.
I suppose I can understand your perspective if you were surrounded by union members like, someone who's name is unimportant for the purposes of this post, who self admittedly spent all of his time as a union member undermining every effort of the union.

Unions are more important for working people right now than at any point in history.
The growing strength of corporate influence in government.
The shipping of jobs overseas.
Attempts to privatize pension funds.

These are all important issues to working people and the only way to oppose them is collectively.

The whole idea behind conditioning people into believing the corporatist's views on unionism is to divide and conquer the working class.
To seperate the working class from the strengths provided by unity.
To cause doubt in the objectives of union causes.


How can a single person fight back when faced with an opposition as powerful as a trans-national corporation? The simple answer is, they can't.

I know this and you should know this, because believe me, the companies sure know it.

Totally agree Robert.

However, I think that we have lost sight of a most important fact.

Corporations & unions are not to blame, as they are only organisations after all.

The MAIN problem is one of power, greed & selfishness. Whether union/corporation, the lumps at the top will always have their own agenda.

Take an ordinary worker & have him reach the top, he will not change because he will have been corrupted by power/greed.

As history has proven, until man evolves to the next step in evolution, this problem will always be with us.

---

guido.man, you cracked me up.

However, I must disagree with you in that the greed we are trying to control is part of the social engineering programs being used by the powerful, not neurochemical differences.

The emphasis in a corporatist society is placed on indivualism, an attitude that is actually harmful to the well being of the community.
Once this is achieved, it's a small step to convincing the individual that they are nothing more than a consumer in a marketplace rather than a citizen of the community.

I think this individualist attitude, where selfish wants overide communal needs, is the core focus of the battle.

A citizen will feel guilt over greed, whereas, a consumer believes that greed itself is the goal.

I refer you to http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml

Which part of the brain is attributed to the ability to use bbcode? More specifically, url tags...

Religious fundementalists, of whatever flavour, are obviously suffering from an overexcitation of the God-circuit whithin their brains.

You got that right! And surprisingly, I know how to use bbcode... ;)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Actually it does nothing more than show your lack of intelligence, waste resources, and detract from the conversation taking place.

And yet I still manage to keep YOUR full attention 24/7... ;)

That's a delusion caused by your narcissism. I participate on these forums drinking my morning coffee and occasionally before I turn in for the night, and you are but one tiny and mostly insignificant aspect of these forums.

However, I do readily admit to trying to teach the ignorant the error of their ways...as with my job, it's a part of trying to make my community better as a whole whereas people like you are only concerned with the individual...namely yourself.

---

I don't think it's a question of waiting for the next step in evolution.
We're already there.
I refer you to
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml
I believe it's our inability to transcend the present sociocultural paradigm that's
holding us back.
Individual idiosyncracies of thought can well be attributed to neurochemistry.
Proponents of Laissez-faire Capitalism and Objectist philosophy obviously have neurochemistry
favouring the reptilian centers of the brain, suborning the neocortex.
Religious fundementalists, of whatever flavour, are obviously suffering from an overexcitation
of the God-circuit whithin their brains.


Sometimes I consider myself to be a "good Buddhist", but as many Buddhist will tell you,
there's no such thing as a " good Buddhist", and if you see "The Buddha", kill him.

I've been called a snake but never so in such an intelligent way. Thanks.

---

Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

However, I must disagree with you in that the greed we are trying to control is part of the social engineering programs being used by the powerful, not neurochemical differences.

I'd better clarify this thought, because it occurs to me that the social engineering probably IS being done by those with a chemical imbalance to influence others with the same condition.

That's a delusion caused by your narcissism. [snip] you are but one tiny and mostly insignificant aspect of these forums.

Ironically, when I read YOUR post history, I see MY post history too... ;)

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

That's a delusion caused by your narcissism. [snip] you are but one tiny and mostly insignificant aspect of these forums.

Ironically, when I read YOUR post history, I see MY post history too... ;)

I haven't denied replying to your posts, only that you are the focus of my attention 24/7.

I do, however, find it interesting that you review my post history. One has to wonder just who IS fascinated with the other...

---

The emphasis in a corporatist society is placed on indivualism, an attitude that is actually harmful to the well being of the community.
Once this is achieved, it's a small step to convincing the individual that they are nothing more than a consumer in a marketplace rather than a citizen of the community.

The phrase "divide and conquer" comes to mind. The folks in control love it when people become individualistic. Single people have no power against their government or corporations. Only through coming together in groups can average folk hope to influence the powers that be. Of course, those powers make laws making it difficult or illegal for average folk to gather. That way they get to keep the profits of their cesspool

Statistics can be used to present anyones version of the truth.

While that happy little bromide is often bandied about as if it were true, in fact it's just silly because presenting a statistic is just another argument that may or may not be valid.

Rush....there are a lot of statistics that " show " that Global Warming is happening and is man made. There are also lots of statistics that " show " that Global Warming is nothing more than a natural cycle.

Both sides say that their statistics are the truth??

Have I not made my point??

You tell me, are both "Global Warming" and "Not-Global Warming" both the truth simultaneously? If not, are both their statistics valid at presented their argument?

For example, I could say "Lies can be used to present anyone's version of the truth," or "Errors can be used to present anyone's version of the truth."

To be more clear, anything can be used to present any version of the truth, but that doesn't mean that it is valid, or that it actually does so. Take my milk statistic, I used it to present my version of the truth, milk makes cereal (heh) killers kill. But in fact, given the popularity of milk as a breakfast item, it supports the likelihood that the killer had breakfast, not that milk caused her to kill. In other words, it doesn't support my contention at all, though it was used to present it.

That whole, "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics," feeds into the same idea that statistics can prove anything, but they are just another level of evidence that the reader has to consider.

Very true. But my point was that either side can use statistics ( sometimes even the same ones), to " prove " that their side is accurate.

In no way was I suggesting that the reader shouldn't come to his/her own conclusions and decipher the " truth " from there.

---

Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

As an individual, there is one overall factor that supersedes Statistics, opinions, & the like and that is - Experience!

As a member of various unions over the past 30 years, I have not come across 1 that had stood up for it's members without using situations to further their agenda, power & influence.

Example, at age 16, I joined the London Evening News as a messenger boy. My dream was that as soon as I hit 18, I wanted to join the compositing room as a compositor (Type Setter). On reaching 18, I applied but was informed that I needed a union ticket to get the job, but to get the ticket, I had to have had the job. The only way to get one at that time was to purchase one from a retiring member who did not have family in the industry.

Cost - £500 ($1000 cer approx) - That does not seem a lot today to ensure one got a brilliant job, but back in 1972, that was an unbelievable sum of money, considering my weekly wage was £3.84 ($7.68)!

As I could not afford that as I had only recently left school, I had to leave as it was a closed shop(non-union members were not allowed to be employed by a company), so joined London Transport.

Where did collective bargaining, or collective groups get those employees of the newspaper? I'll tell you where - on the unemployment list as the London Evening News is no more due to unreasonable demands! The screams heard in the media industry when PC's took over were very interesting to hear.

20 years later, are the screams still being heard? No chance, the union head lumps are still at the top but where are the members?

Governments are just the same - Lumps at the top feathering their nests & using laws to keep us in our places.

Look at Europe & travel. One has to answer 53 questions when making travel arrangements which will be given to Police, security etc 24 hours before you travel. Something quite not right about your answers & when you arrive to travel, you will be refused exit/entrance to country - Will you have your costs refunded? I doubt it!!!

I wonder what will be next? Family fined for a member dying before they have retired & not paying sufficient income tax?

I have noticed banks (UK) over the past couple of years will not allow people to open some accounts unless they can guarantee a monthly net income of £1000 ($2000)

All I can see is the rich getting richer & the poor getting stuffed!

[Edit] have been a past member of the following unions: -
ASLEF,NUR,RMT,SOGAT,TSSA,USDAW,UCW,T&GWU. All big unions which at one time, were constantly on the front pages of UK newspapers every DAY throughout the 1970's. What mention do they get now? [Edit}

On reaching 18, I applied but was informed that I needed a union ticket to get the job, but to get the ticket, I had to have had the job. The only way to get one at that time was to purchase one from a retiring member who did not have family in the industry.

Cost - £500 ($1000 cer approx) - That does not seem a lot today to ensure one got a brilliant job, but back in 1972, that was an unbelievable sum of money, considering my weekly wage was £3.84 ($7.68) per week!

As I could not afford that as I had only recently left school, I had to leave as it was a closed shop(non-union members were not allowed to be employed by a company), so joined London Transport.

That's not what I know about unions.
Of course I'm in a union, and of course I go voting on Betriebsratswahlen, where the workers representants for negotiations are elected.
But there is no way that union membership is a condition to get a job. This is the first time I hear about such stuff. Unions struggle to get the companies workers organised, as they have the expenses for the negotiations for wages, they have to pay their members strike money if there's a strike necessary, and the non-organised employees get all the benefits as well without paying their member fee. No company will dare to pay the non-organised less, as this will only drive the organisation percentage up, and that percentage is quite low imho in most companies.

That's not what I know about unions.
Of course I'm in a union, and of course I go voting on Betriebsratswahlen, where the workers representants for negotiations are elected.
But there is no way that union membership is a condition to get a job. This is the first time I hear about such stuff. Unions struggle to get the companies workers organised, as they have the expenses for the negotiations for wages, they have to pay their members strike money if there's a strike necessary, and the non-organised employees get all the benefits as well without paying their member fee. No company will dare to pay the non-organised less, as this will only drive the organisation percentage up, and that percentage is quite low imho in most companies.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Back then, & even further back in time, unions were nasty pieces of work.

It was not London Evening News that was saying this. As it was a closed shop, I had to GET a union ticket to be able to work as a trainee compositor. HOWEVER, the very same union would not let the company employ me in that role as it was a union agreement that all compositors were unionised. No non-union employee was allowed to work in the compositing room. Back then, it was this room that controlled the newspapers & most of the members had their family working there as it was a very good paying job.

However, we're talking about the early 1970's & the youth of the day wanted someting better from life & started going to college, university etc to better themselves. Hence no new blood entering the print industry which nearly killed it off until PC's entered the market place.

PC's then became a godsend to the media industry - less employees = more profit.

You state that this is not what you know about unions, may I ask how old you are? I am nearly 52 & have experienced & witnessed this first hand over the past 35 years & still have documentation to prove it.

---

PC's then became a godsend to the media industry - less employees = more profit.

Actually, PCs were a 'godsend' to the capitalists, everybody else lost... ;)

As you have said:

All I can see is the rich getting richer & the poor getting stuffed!

But then you also said this:

my weekly wage was £3.84 ($7.68)!

Rubbish!

---

It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

PC's then became a godsend to the media industry - less employees = more profit.

Actually, PCs were a 'godsend' to the capitalists, everybody else lost... ;)

As you have said:

All I can see is the rich getting richer & the poor getting stuffed!

But then you also said this:

my weekly wage was £3.84 ($7.68)!

Rubbish!

Not necessarily. My monthly wage as an apprentice (or is the right translation "trainee"?) was 1/10 of what I got when I was a full-time worker later, working on 3 shifts.
My step son now gets a monthly wage of €172.- now as an apprentice - and if he gets a job later, his monthly wage will be about €1,600 (if he doesn't move to where they pay more)

And what was the pound worth back in the 70s? I've heard back a hundred years ago, even $1 was a lot of money...

---

Account frozen...