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Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
I don't feel the need to include a civics lesson covering the rest of the world when discussing the US Topics about America ALWAYS seem to get diverted elsewhere... ;) For example: The Truth Be Told It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
I think Admiral Yamamoto said it best " I fear we have awoken a sleeping giant" Since Korea, it seems every nation on this planet has had a pop at the USA. I have come across many Brits who have stated that Britain could have won WWII without the Yanks. I don't think so, without Lend-Lease & the voluntary manpower, even though it was an illegal act, the men & women of America came to our aid. What has this to do with this thread? SIMPLE...look into the history of WWII. Men & Women dying most painfully & horribly in torpedoed ships, what were the unions doing? Look it up on google, yahoo etc etc etc etc etc! When unions 1st came into being, they were a godsend to the workers, for the last 40 years, they have been parasites. Nuff said. |
Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
When unions 1st came into being, they were a godsend to the workers, for the last 40 years, they have been parasites. Not to be confused with the government parasites nor the corporate parasites... ;) It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Not to be confused with the government parasites nor the corporate parasites... ;) No, we musn't. Just lump them all together, stick them on a prison ship, let it sail, then have the navy torpedo it. The ordinary workers just don't stand a chance. |
Robert Waite Send message Joined: 23 Oct 07 Posts: 2417 Credit: 18,192,122 RAC: 59 |
This is one of the points brought always forward by the corporate PR drives against unions. Make no mistake about this. The corporate powers have been on a full frontal assault against unions since the end of WWII, using every means within their control. This includes newspaper editorials, television and radio news. Hell, the corporation I worked for for 17 years was found to have stooges posting in a union only message board during a lock-out. Guess who they sounded like? Don't RUSH, I'll give you a moment to consider. They always start off with a recognition of the usefullness of unions...way back when, but end with the same conclusion that unions are outdated or corrupt. I suppose I can understand your perspective if you were surrounded by union members like, someone who's name is unimportant for the purposes of this post, who self admittedly spent all of his time as a union member undermining every effort of the union. Unions are more important for working people right now than at any point in history. The growing strength of corporate influence in government. The shipping of jobs overseas. Attempts to privatize pension funds. These are all important issues to working people and the only way to oppose them is collectively. The whole idea behind conditioning people into believing the corporatist's views on unionism is to divide and conquer the working class. To seperate the working class from the strengths provided by unity. To cause doubt in the objectives of union causes. How can a single person fight back when faced with an opposition as powerful as a trans-national corporation? The simple answer is, they can't. I know this and you should know this, because believe me, the companies sure know it. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
Totally agree Robert. However, I think that we have lost sight of a most important fact. Corporations & unions are not to blame, as they are only organisations after all. The MAIN problem is one of power, greed & selfishness. Whether union/corporation, the lumps at the top will always have their own agenda. Take an ordinary worker & have him reach the top, he will not change because he will have been corrupted by power/greed. As history has proven, until man evolves to the next step in evolution, this problem will always be with us. |
Robert Waite Send message Joined: 23 Oct 07 Posts: 2417 Credit: 18,192,122 RAC: 59 |
guido.man, you cracked me up. However, I must disagree with you in that the greed we are trying to control is part of the social engineering programs being used by the powerful, not neurochemical differences. The emphasis in a corporatist society is placed on indivualism, an attitude that is actually harmful to the well being of the community. Once this is achieved, it's a small step to convincing the individual that they are nothing more than a consumer in a marketplace rather than a citizen of the community. I think this individualist attitude, where selfish wants overide communal needs, is the core focus of the battle. A citizen will feel guilt over greed, whereas, a consumer believes that greed itself is the goal. |
Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
I refer you to http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/godonbrain.shtml Which part of the brain is attributed to the ability to use bbcode? More specifically, url tags... Religious fundementalists, of whatever flavour, are obviously suffering from an overexcitation of the God-circuit whithin their brains. You got that right! And surprisingly, I know how to use bbcode... ;) It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
BrainSmashR Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 |
Actually it does nothing more than show your lack of intelligence, waste resources, and detract from the conversation taking place. That's a delusion caused by your narcissism. I participate on these forums drinking my morning coffee and occasionally before I turn in for the night, and you are but one tiny and mostly insignificant aspect of these forums. However, I do readily admit to trying to teach the ignorant the error of their ways...as with my job, it's a part of trying to make my community better as a whole whereas people like you are only concerned with the individual...namely yourself. |
Scary Capitalist Send message Joined: 21 May 01 Posts: 7404 Credit: 97,085 RAC: 0 |
I don't think it's a question of waiting for the next step in evolution. I've been called a snake but never so in such an intelligent way. Thanks. Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data! I did NOT authorize this belly writing! |
Robert Waite Send message Joined: 23 Oct 07 Posts: 2417 Credit: 18,192,122 RAC: 59 |
I'd better clarify this thought, because it occurs to me that the social engineering probably IS being done by those with a chemical imbalance to influence others with the same condition. |
Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
That's a delusion caused by your narcissism. [snip] you are but one tiny and mostly insignificant aspect of these forums. Ironically, when I read YOUR post history, I see MY post history too... ;) It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
BrainSmashR Send message Joined: 7 Apr 02 Posts: 1772 Credit: 384,573 RAC: 0 |
That's a delusion caused by your narcissism. [snip] you are but one tiny and mostly insignificant aspect of these forums. I haven't denied replying to your posts, only that you are the focus of my attention 24/7. I do, however, find it interesting that you review my post history. One has to wonder just who IS fascinated with the other... |
peanut Send message Joined: 1 Feb 07 Posts: 372 Credit: 1,951,576 RAC: 0 |
The phrase "divide and conquer" comes to mind. The folks in control love it when people become individualistic. Single people have no power against their government or corporations. Only through coming together in groups can average folk hope to influence the powers that be. Of course, those powers make laws making it difficult or illegal for average folk to gather. That way they get to keep the profits of their cesspool |
Knightmare Send message Joined: 16 Aug 04 Posts: 7472 Credit: 94,252 RAC: 0 |
Statistics can be used to present anyones version of the truth. Very true. But my point was that either side can use statistics ( sometimes even the same ones), to " prove " that their side is accurate. In no way was I suggesting that the reader shouldn't come to his/her own conclusions and decipher the " truth " from there. Air Cold, the blade stops; from silent stone, Death is preordained Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
As an individual, there is one overall factor that supersedes Statistics, opinions, & the like and that is - Experience! As a member of various unions over the past 30 years, I have not come across 1 that had stood up for it's members without using situations to further their agenda, power & influence. Example, at age 16, I joined the London Evening News as a messenger boy. My dream was that as soon as I hit 18, I wanted to join the compositing room as a compositor (Type Setter). On reaching 18, I applied but was informed that I needed a union ticket to get the job, but to get the ticket, I had to have had the job. The only way to get one at that time was to purchase one from a retiring member who did not have family in the industry. Cost - £500 ($1000 cer approx) - That does not seem a lot today to ensure one got a brilliant job, but back in 1972, that was an unbelievable sum of money, considering my weekly wage was £3.84 ($7.68)! As I could not afford that as I had only recently left school, I had to leave as it was a closed shop(non-union members were not allowed to be employed by a company), so joined London Transport. Where did collective bargaining, or collective groups get those employees of the newspaper? I'll tell you where - on the unemployment list as the London Evening News is no more due to unreasonable demands! The screams heard in the media industry when PC's took over were very interesting to hear. 20 years later, are the screams still being heard? No chance, the union head lumps are still at the top but where are the members? Governments are just the same - Lumps at the top feathering their nests & using laws to keep us in our places. Look at Europe & travel. One has to answer 53 questions when making travel arrangements which will be given to Police, security etc 24 hours before you travel. Something quite not right about your answers & when you arrive to travel, you will be refused exit/entrance to country - Will you have your costs refunded? I doubt it!!! I wonder what will be next? Family fined for a member dying before they have retired & not paying sufficient income tax? I have noticed banks (UK) over the past couple of years will not allow people to open some accounts unless they can guarantee a monthly net income of £1000 ($2000) All I can see is the rich getting richer & the poor getting stuffed! [Edit] have been a past member of the following unions: - ASLEF,NUR,RMT,SOGAT,TSSA,USDAW,UCW,T&GWU. All big unions which at one time, were constantly on the front pages of UK newspapers every DAY throughout the 1970's. What mention do they get now? [Edit} |
Saenger Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 2452 Credit: 33,281 RAC: 0 |
On reaching 18, I applied but was informed that I needed a union ticket to get the job, but to get the ticket, I had to have had the job. The only way to get one at that time was to purchase one from a retiring member who did not have family in the industry. That's not what I know about unions. Of course I'm in a union, and of course I go voting on Betriebsratswahlen, where the workers representants for negotiations are elected. But there is no way that union membership is a condition to get a job. This is the first time I hear about such stuff. Unions struggle to get the companies workers organised, as they have the expenses for the negotiations for wages, they have to pay their members strike money if there's a strike necessary, and the non-organised employees get all the benefits as well without paying their member fee. No company will dare to pay the non-organised less, as this will only drive the organisation percentage up, and that percentage is quite low imho in most companies. |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24904 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
That's not what I know about unions. I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Back then, & even further back in time, unions were nasty pieces of work. It was not London Evening News that was saying this. As it was a closed shop, I had to GET a union ticket to be able to work as a trainee compositor. HOWEVER, the very same union would not let the company employ me in that role as it was a union agreement that all compositors were unionised. No non-union employee was allowed to work in the compositing room. Back then, it was this room that controlled the newspapers & most of the members had their family working there as it was a very good paying job. However, we're talking about the early 1970's & the youth of the day wanted someting better from life & started going to college, university etc to better themselves. Hence no new blood entering the print industry which nearly killed it off until PC's entered the market place. PC's then became a godsend to the media industry - less employees = more profit. You state that this is not what you know about unions, may I ask how old you are? I am nearly 52 & have experienced & witnessed this first hand over the past 35 years & still have documentation to prove it. |
Jeffrey Send message Joined: 21 Nov 03 Posts: 4793 Credit: 26,029 RAC: 0 |
PC's then became a godsend to the media industry - less employees = more profit. Actually, PCs were a 'godsend' to the capitalists, everybody else lost... ;) As you have said: All I can see is the rich getting richer & the poor getting stuffed! But then you also said this: my weekly wage was £3.84 ($7.68)! Rubbish! It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . . |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
PC's then became a godsend to the media industry - less employees = more profit. Not necessarily. My monthly wage as an apprentice (or is the right translation "trainee"?) was 1/10 of what I got when I was a full-time worker later, working on 3 shifts. My step son now gets a monthly wage of €172.- now as an apprentice - and if he gets a job later, his monthly wage will be about €1,600 (if he doesn't move to where they pay more) And what was the pound worth back in the 70s? I've heard back a hundred years ago, even $1 was a lot of money... Account frozen... |
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