> Your government scared you to death with Irak WMD and you believed it and gave
> him
> full "authorisation" to go even if it wasn't true.
First off the citizens didnt give full authorization, Congress did, and you can blame that on 9/11. Secondly I know I read a report that originated from the UN that they did find that Saddam had his WMD's disassembled and shipped all over Europe. I dont know if was a great or small quantity. I'll try to find the report. But like the saying goes in SETI "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." Thats one big desert there and Saddam had more than enough money and resources to, hypothetically, build a huge installation underground below all that sand that unless you know where it was you'd never be able to find it. Like a needle in a haystack. Maybe its there and maybe its not. We may never know either way. OR maybe Bush knows exactly where it is and it waiting until right before the election to announce the 'discovery'. Its also talk here that Bush knows where Bin Laden is hiding and will announce they 'found' him right before the election too.

> The power of citizins to
> have control
> over the government decision is made by free speech and protests. In america
> those who were against the war in Irak were affaraid to say it publicaly
> because they
> were treated as unpatrioticts!!! who put that in the mind of people? Your
> government !
Theres a difference between 'supporting a war' and 'supporting your troops'. Even if youre against a war at least try to give your own people a morale boost and let them know your thinking of them and pray they make it back alive.

> Don't be fooled that because you have a gun in your house protects you from
> your
> goverment. The French are far from conforming to the standards set by society
> and
> they do it very well without guns. France is a real democracy and it becaume
> so thru
> is long history.
It wasnt always like that. You also had something called the French Revolution. France may have turned out a lot differently if that never happened.

> Why Paris is called city of light ? I am sure 75 no 98% of
> american think
> it must be because the city has a lot of bulbes...
Thats what I mean when I say an anti-american statement with "98%" being directly aimed at the civilian population AKA a stereotype. I for one have never heard of Paris refered to as "city of light", but I have heard that its a beautiful city and from pictures I believe that.


> Your country spend 350 billions USD per year in defence since the sixties. It
> has
> by far the biggest army in the world.
Army as in foot soldiers? I think that's China.

> Don't take it bad, really, but I am so sure that Europeans have a much better
> understanding of the world and their general culture is much better.
>
I know I said it previously here it wouldnt be 'politically correct' if a white america had its own culture and would be labeled racist.

> On another subject, we are also one of the few countries that allow the sale
> of our land to foreign interests. Soon most of California will be owned by
> Japan and the Arab's.
>
Oh you've forgotten about the big MECHA controversy when Cruz Bustamonte ran in the election to replace Gray Davis.

> Going to war with Iraq had very little to do with Weapons of Mass Distruction.
> The threats of WMDs only made the invasion happen sooner. The UN is the one
> who passed the resolutions saying we could use force if he didn't follow the
> rules back after the first gulf war. So you could say it was the UNs fault for
> allowing the use of force. The fanatics in the Middle East need to be wiped
> out. They live for death and destruction of anyone who doesn't agree with
> their views. Things have gone so well for the US over in Iraq that it is hard
> for me to see how anyone could argue against it. We have had miniscule
> casualties and the people in general seem very happy to have been liberated.
>
Right again. Terrorism and WMD was used as an excuse to justify it but was that necessary?
I found those UN Security Councel Resolutions. They are 1441 which follows up on 687. Also a very informative read HERE. (Note: It is written by the US government so dont say I didnt warn you.)

> > > Actually it might not be a good
> > > idea. It would not make the military industries healthy. War on
> terror
> > > does that very well. lol
> > >
> > Petit Soleil, In your personal opinion what do you think the US should
> have
> > done in response to 9/11? Also, hypothetically, what do you think the
> French
> > government would do if terrorists destroyed the Louvre and Eiffel Tower
> and
> > killed a few thousand innocent civilians in the process?
>
> I really don't know. But I am almost certain that they would have not annoyed
> the
> hole world like BUSH did.
>
Well dont be so sure about that. We thought the exact same thing. I do believe that if Chirac asked for our aid we would give it, whether military or humanitarian. Also imagine if one of those 9/11 jets was flown into the UN building, destroying it and killing everyone in it. All the reps of every nation gone. Would the world have a better approval rating of US actions then?

Well, here is how I can say that the Iraq Action is going very well, it isn't a war officially. First off I am not sure if the 1,000 number includes accidents and friendly fire situations. If it does I would say that isn't appropriate since those would have happened even here in the US during training. But even so 1,000 is a very small number for taking over what was a decade ago was about the 5th most powerfull military. I would say that if it had been 5,000 it still would have been lower than alot would have thought. Alot of that is due to our military having such modern equipment and superb training.

You want to know why we didn't finish the job back in '91 when we were over there???? I can tell you why. Because the members of the UN strongly urged the president not to enter Baghdad. The President wanted to but didn't want to anger our allies.

The huge defense spending the war is costing is great for us. It means our workers and factories produce more military items and we all benefit. Who cares if we have a huge deficit, it isn't like an individual where the bank can come and take our house.

If we didn't give countries like Russia, Isreal and others around Europe and the Middle East so much money they would back slide and turn into unstable governments. We try to stop that but they just want more and more and more. I am affraid we are going to give away so much that we are going to be lowered to a 3rd world country. We need to stop giving away money and only give it away in return for a solid product, instead of using it to make them like us for a short while. I think the US needs to be very tough when dealing with other countries like North Korea and Iran. They need to know that we won't hesitate to overthrow them if they pose a threat to world peace.

> If we didn't give countries like Russia, Isreal and others around Europe and
> the Middle East so much money they would back slide and turn into unstable
> governments. We try to stop that but they just want more and more and more. I
> am affraid we are going to give away so much that we are going to be lowered
> to a 3rd world country. We need to stop giving away money and only give it
> away in return for a solid product, instead of using it to make them like us
> for a short while. I think the US needs to be very tough when dealing with
> other countries like North Korea and Iran. They need to know that we won't
> hesitate to overthrow them if they pose a threat to world peace.
>
Look at how the money started flowing heavily into Pakistan when they declared they would be our ally against terror. You know that really had to anger India. Hmmm...but then our companies began outsourcing US jobs to India. I guess the status quo was maintained. :P

> -H. Richard Utzig
>
I think that was his way of paraphrasing the cliche "No matter how bad it is it could always get worse."

That is not a fair statement to make Richard. First of all I did not say that anyone dying was insignificant. I simply said that it is much lower than you would expect looking back at past wars. How from that can you get that I am callous?

Secondly the people who are serving are there by choice. When you join the military you do so because you think the risk of dying is worth the good you do. The same way with police and fireman, they do it because they choose to. No one forced them into that line of work.

Keith

> Secondly the people who are serving are there by choice. When you join the
> military you do so because you think the risk of dying is worth the good you
> do. The same way with police and fireman, they do it because they choose to.
> No one forced them into that line of work.
>
> Keith
>
Personally, while I wish there was never a need for war, I totally support our troops. I felt you were just making a statistical comparison by number and didnt I didnt think what you were saying was callous either, nor was that your intent. They did volunteer and knew full well what the risk was. They join because they WANT to join. Pat Tillman is an excellent example. He followed his heart and did what he thought was right. No matter what Michael Moore says to the contrary there is NOT a draft.
On a lighter note lets keep in mind three things. 1) Bill Clinton fled to Canada to avoid a war. 2) George W Bush joined the National Guard to avoid a war. 3) John Kerry got three purple hearts for a hangnail and two splinters in a war.

> > Why Paris is called city of light ? I am sure 75 no 98% of
> > american think
> > it must be because the city has a lot of bulbes...
> Thats what I mean when I say an anti-american statement with "98%" being
> directly aimed at the civilian population AKA a stereotype. I for one have
> never heard of Paris refered to as "city of light", but I have heard that its
> a beautiful city and from pictures I believe that.

I made a search on the net for "Paris city of light" and found thousands of links.
almost all of them are related to travel and it was obvious that no one know
why Paris was called like that. I even read from an american who walked on
champs élysée at night saying "now I know why Paris is called city of lights!"
It is true that this streets is beautiful at night but it is not why Paris is called
"La ville lumieres" Lumiere "light" here means BRIGHT

Here is an historical explanation. Good to read really. So next time you talk
with a friend who go to Paris you will know things he don't.

Background and Basic Tenets

The scientific and intellectual developments of the 17th cent.—the discoveries of Isaac Newton, the rationalism of Réné Descartes, the skepticism of Pierre Bayle, the pantheism of Benedict de Spinoza, and the empiricism of Francis Bacon and John Locke—fostered the belief in natural law and universal order and the confidence in human reason that spread to influence all of 18th-century society. Currents of thought were many and varied, but certain ideas may be characterized as pervading and dominant. A rational and scientific approach to religious, social, political, and economic issues promoted a secular view of the world and a general sense of progress and perfectibility.

The major champions of these concepts were the philosophes, who popularized and promulgated the new ideas for the general reading public. These proponents of the Enlightenment shared certain basic attitudes. With supreme faith in rationality, they sought to discover and to act upon universally valid principles governing humanity, nature, and society. They variously attacked spiritual and scientific authority, dogmatism, intolerance, censorship, and economic and social restraints. They considered the state the proper and rational instrument of progress. The extreme rationalism and skepticism of the age led naturally to deism; the same qualities played a part in bringing the later reaction of romanticism. The Encyclopédie of Denis Diderot epitomized the spirit of the Age of Enlightenment, or Age of Reason, as it is also called.


An International System of Thought

Centered in Paris, the movement gained international character at cosmopolitan salons. Masonic lodges played an important role in disseminating the new ideas throughout Europe. Foremost in France among proponents of the Enlightenment were baron de Montesquieu, Voltaire, and comte de Buffon; Baron Turgot and other physiocrats; and Jean Jacques Rousseau, who greatly influenced romanticism. Many opposed the extreme materialism of Julien de La Mettrie, baron d’ Holbach, and Claude Helvétius.

In England the coffeehouses and the newly flourishing press stimulated social and political criticism, such as the urbane commentary of Joseph Addison and Sir Richard Steele. Jonathan Swift and Alexander Pope were influential Tory satirists. Lockean theories of learning by sense perception were further developed by David Hume. The philosophical view of human rationality as being in harmony with the universe created a hospitable climate for the laissez-faire economics of Adam Smith and for the utilitarianism of Jeremy Bentham. Historical writing gained secular detachment in the work of Edward Gibbon.

In Germany the universities became centers of the Enlightenment (Ger. Aufklärung). Moses Mendelssohn set forth a doctrine of rational progress; G. E. Lessing advanced a natural religion of morality; Johann Herder developed a philosophy of cultural nationalism. The supreme importance of the individual formed the basis of the ethics of Immanuel Kant. Italian representatives of the age included Cesare Beccaria and Giambattista Vico. From America, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin exerted vast international influence.

Some philosophers at first proposed that their theories be implemented by “enlightened despots”rulers who would impose reform by authoritarian means. Czar Peter I of Russia anticipated the trend, and Holy Roman Emperor Joseph II was the prototype of the enlightened despot; others were Frederick II of Prussia, Catherine II of Russia, and Charles III of Spain. The proponents of the Enlightenment have often been held responsible for the French Revolution. Certainly the Age of Enlightenment can be seen as a major demarcation in the emergence of the modern world.


-.-. --.- -.. -..- . - --... ...-- .-.-. -.-

I will certainly admit I thought it was called the city of lights because of lots of lights. LOL I have always wanted to visit France, Germany, Russia and Japan. People tell me Russia is fairly dangerous though I am not sure if this is true or not.

Keith

> I will certainly admit I thought it was called the city of lights because of
> lots of lights. LOL I have always wanted to visit France, Germany, Russia and
> Japan. People tell me Russia is fairly dangerous though I am not sure if this
> is true or not.

Yea almost no americans knows. I think the world history and philosophy is not part of global education in the US and that's why. We have the same problem in Canada. When I started to meet with French on my first contract I was very surprised by their level of education and general culture. Since I own French citizenship I am trying to catch up...No problem for tourrist to go to russia. If you want to go there to start a business it's another story... Bring body guards and money to pay the russian mafia...

> > Your government scared you to death with Irak WMD and you believed it and
> gave
> > him
> > full "authorisation" to go even if it wasn't true.
> First off the citizens didnt give full authorization, Congress did, and you
> can blame that on 9/11. Secondly I know I read a report that originated from
> the UN that they did find that Saddam had his WMD's disassembled and shipped
> all over Europe. I dont know if was a great or small quantity. I'll try to
> find the report. But like the saying goes in SETI "Absence of evidence is not
> evidence of absence." Thats one big desert there and Saddam had more than
> enough money and resources to, hypothetically, build a huge installation
> underground below all that sand that unless you know where it was you'd never
> be able to find it. Like a needle in a haystack. Maybe its there and maybe
> its not. We may never know either way. OR maybe Bush knows exactly where it
> is and it waiting until right before the election to announce the 'discovery'.

I found a link to one of those UN reports. This wasnt the exact article I previously read so there are more of them out there.

I've always followed that Gun ownership frenzy in the US with a mix of amusement and witnessing the "total lack of common sense" in it all.

I'm just waiting for a US citizen to setup a BOFORS L-70 "Flycatcher" in his garden (next to the obligatory 50ft Flagpole), in order to protect him against what actually only exists in his head...

The most odd thing that occurs to me is :
How... on earth... can there be still any criminal alive in that country anyway?

Those should (by now) have an average life expectancy of a maximum of 19 years, and should be all either crippled or dead by now (considering the civilian population over there alone owns more firepower than most small nations' armies o.0 )

If all that Threatening and "defend your home"-talking was even remotely realistic, there should be war-like conditions with heavy, prolonged firefights going on in every single Town over there, every single night...

Criminals would have to be either completely mental, heavily suicidal, outright dumb as bread...
...or armed+trained like a 21th century heavy Assault team, driving around only in APC's in order to just survive.
--------------
Since none of that is the case, that leads me to believe those completely overpowered citizens are fearing nothing but an elusive Phantom.
(a bit like Homer Simpson fearing the Boogeyman)

The little towns likely remain silent as a doornail (as always), despite housing enough weapons to take on half an Infantry division :p
Yet, their inhabitants continue to house enough fear as if alien hordes were to take over their country any second.

Just... odd... very very odd...

--- edit ---
And one more thing :

If so much defense was really needed in order to "protect your family and property"...

Why... on earth... are people still living in normal houses, partly even made of wood ?

Those should be made of Titanium plated, armoured Steel with active and passive protection, allowing access only through self-sealing, hydraulic operated 1500lbs bulkheads.
Fully automated, integrated sensor, defense and life support subsystems being self-explanatory.
___________________________________________
<p>Scientific Network : 36200 MHz «» 8204 MB «» 815.0 GB </p>

Gun ownership isn't quite as wide spread as you describe. I live in the "Bible Belt" and many people here consider themselves part of the south. Even here it's not like every family has a gun. Those that do are mostly hunters and then collectors. Gun safety is taught from generation down to generation and there is a healthy understanding of the difference between having a gun and being an idiot. People own guns here are in many ways like car enthusiasts, it's fun and they enjoy marksmanship. Only the collectors are after the assult rifles. Yes there are the idiots, but idiots have records which means they have to get guns illegally anyways.

People aren't afraid of much. What is there to be afraid of? A Mexican invation? Give me a break. There aren't roaming gangs or war lords. We all know the likelyhood of conventional war on American soil is as likely as winning a land war in China. As for terrorists our guns aren't going to do a whole lot of good anyways.

We don't own guns just to "protect your family and property" but because the constitution says we can. People buy them for all different reasons but most are for hunting. Every single gun owner I know of hunts and just enjoys shooting. You should try it once at a range and may be you'll understand better. Sure there are the nuts but they're in every country and laws won't stop them from getting guns. The right to own firearms is a responsibility that we understand and carry well. It's part of the culture. You really should come over and spend some time with the average hunter before you start characterizing people you've never met.

Everyone here builds with wood because we aren't afraid.

What you're saying is like saying all Canadians are polite, all Chinese know martial arts, and the French are all weenies. You really shouldn't buy in to TV that much.

mostly_harmless

Well, I've spent some years in the US and your reply was actually one of the most reasonable so far.

Of course, (as a European) I've spent some time at those "shooting ranges".
...which was fun, although the difference in philosophy could be seen immediately :
- no safety personell around
- picking up a whole arsenal was just like vising a golf club
(even in the armed forces I always had dedicated safety personell right besides me when handling/firing weapons)

Personally, I do like firing a G-36, F.A.M, a Shutgun or the 9mm classic handguns.

But still, I wouldn't see much point in owning one and storing it at home.
(except for the marksmanship on a dedicated range, as I wouldn't kill animals for a sport out in the open).

The biggest Problem I (and likely others) have, is that every "joe schmack" can buy and own a gun with little to no effort, which is fully permissable by law.
In Europe, people have a careful eye on young Drivers, because key factors like "responsibility" are always in question.

Having the same people being able to own lethal weapons (and consequently, generations of children growing up with Weapons being used/maintained/stored around them) is IMHO a whole different story in that respect, and massively increases the risk of abuse, which (in case of lethal weaponry) can easily lead into desaster and tragedy on a simply different scale.

PS.
My personal favorite is the gun I use at work (M61A1), but I really wouldn't want to have one of those things in my house ;)
___________________________________________
<p>Scientific Network : 36200 MHz «» 8204 MB «» 815.0 GB </p>

"Of course, (as a European) I've spent some time at those "shooting ranges".
...which was fun, although the difference in philosophy could be seen immediately :
- no safety personell around
- picking up a whole arsenal was just like vising a golf club
(even in the armed forces I always had dedicated safety personell right besides me when handling/firing weapons)"

--Picking up a gun is NOT as east as visiting a golf club. First you have to get checked out by the federal government, then you have to wait 5-10 days for your local police to do a background check and get you a permit for every gun you want to buy. Again I say that the European mindset is sure different. You need safety personel? Why aren't you a responsible adult? We have a fairly busy shooting range near my town and in the last 29 years there hasn't been a single person injured. Here in the U.S. we don't need to have someone watching over our every move because we gladly take responsibility for our actions. If you are an idiot and point the gun at someone while doing whatever and fire it by accident that is your carelessnes and you will pay for it. Having a gun in your possesion is a BIG responsibility.

I was reading some statistics published by the FBI and quite a few of the police officers that are killed are done so by having their gun taken from them and used to kill them. This is because they are in such close proximity to criminals of course.

Do the police in France and other European countries carry firearms on their persons?

Keith