The biggest complaints I've seen about wind power so far is people complaining they're "an eyesore." But it seems like a pretty benign power source, i.e. people may not like the look of a huge "wind farm" but there's no waste and pollution etc so compared to "ugly" nuke or fossil fuel power plant which adds up to nasty wastes etc, it seems like a nice thing to look into. I suppose we could have a "Wind.net" project to model the effects of huge wind power on the atmosphere & climate! ;-)

Seriously though, I would hope scientific studies come up to show the feasibility and effects (if any) on alternative energy. Intuitively it seems much easier on the earth & atmosphere than traditional exhaustible forms of energy such as oil & coal & nuke. And actually PetitSoleil, there were worried about planes disrupting the atmosphere, esp as jets & the Concorde became prevalent; there were a lot of studies on what that sort of exhaust in the upper troposphere & stratosphere (for Concorde) could do. In fact that led to Paul Crutzen and others finding out about the ozone layer depletion due to CFCs which led to their Nobel prizes in Chemistry.

> Seriously though, I would hope scientific studies come up to show the
> feasibility and effects (if any) on alternative energy. Intuitively it seems
> much easier on the earth & atmosphere than traditional exhaustible forms
> of energy such as oil & coal & nuke. And actually PetitSoleil, there
> were worried about planes disrupting the atmosphere, esp as jets & the
> Concorde became prevalent; there were a lot of studies on what that sort of
> exhaust in the upper troposphere & stratosphere (for Concorde) could do.
> In fact that led to Paul Crutzen and others finding out about the ozone layer
> depletion due to CFCs which led to their Nobel prizes in Chemistry.
>

Thanks Carl correcting me. In fact I was aware of these studies and I should
have mentionned "general public" never cared about environemental impact
of jets and stuff.

I personally like looking at these wind power tower. It looks futuristic and
intelligent. The port of Copenhagen is surrounded by these and I like when
we call there, but It does interfere with some of my communication equipments.

It is time we change energy sources. It always amazed me that we make holes
on the earth to get stuff that nature took millions of years to put there. Focile
energy is primitive.

> The biggest complaints I've seen about wind power so far is people complaining
> they're "an eyesore." But it seems like a pretty benign power source, i.e.
> people may not like the look of a huge "wind farm" but there's no waste and
> pollution etc so compared to "ugly" nuke or fossil fuel power plant which adds
> up to nasty wastes etc, it seems like a nice thing to look into. I suppose we
> could have a "Wind.net" project to model the effects of huge wind power on the
> atmosphere & climate! ;-)

It's also more expensive. I'm paying more per KwH than people who are using traditional power sources do (gas and oil are cheap here on the Gulf Coast though - your mileage may vary). I've yet to hear a good explanation of why wind is more expensive since wind is, you know, free.

Um, also, I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I think the original environmental impact discussion is quality. Carry on!




------------------------------------


The game High/Low is played by tossing two nuclear warheads into the air. The one whose bomb explodes higher wins. This game is usually played by people of low intelligence, hence the name High/Low.

I used to use "Green Mountain" when I lived in the US (Philly area) but ended up getting rid of them as their CEO is a huge Bush supporter so I figured nothing good could come of that and was proved right again! ;-)
As typical for those sorts, it seems more like an Enron-style scam than really delivering on clean/renewable energy sources, viz:

http://www.boycottgreenmountain.com/

> I used to use "Green Mountain" when I lived in the US (Philly area) but ended
> up getting rid of them as their CEO is a huge Bush supporter so I figured
> nothing good could come of that and was proved right again! ;-)
> As typical for those sorts, it seems more like an Enron-style scam than really
> delivering on clean/renewable energy sources, viz:
>
> http://www.boycottgreenmountain.com/
>
>

Again, sorry to everyone for hijacking the thread.

I have an open mind, so I did indeed viz your link. Here's what I found:

1. The site is over 4 years old. I get this from sentences like these: "A 10 megawatt wind farm in Somerset County in southwest Pennsylvania was built to supply Green Mountain's mix and should be doing so starting around May 2000." So the text was written before May 2000, and most dates it cites are from 1999.

2. The site offers very little evidence to support its claims. Many of its links don't work (since it's so out of date) and most of the ones that do link to .org sites, which are typically not objective observers.

3. I didn't choose the power company based on any particular political views. If I did, I don't think I'd get to have electricity at all.

4. 0 mention of the West Texas wind farm, probably because it was built well after this site was last updated. Therefore there's nothing that disputes the fact that *my* power is 100% wind generated, which was what I wanted when I signed up.




------------------------------------


The game High/Low is played by tossing two nuclear warheads into the air. The one whose bomb explodes higher wins. This game is usually played by people of low intelligence, hence the name High/Low.

[duplicated above]

Papa, I hope that you're right and my info on GreenMtn is just outdated. At the time I was a PA resident that was how things stood with them.

> > > Therefore, in my case, there is 0 impact
> > > on the environment.
> >
> > That's an ambitious claim. However, it could be argued that the wind
> turbines that are generating your power disrupt the flow of air, causing
> > some(unquantified) environmental change downstream of the power farm.
> >
>
> Please tell me you're not serious.

I'm serious about people making absolute claims. Yes, I realize that the impact on the environment is probably negligible, but it is not absolute zero.

Consider secondary and tertiary effects, such as:
- the redistribution of energy from one section of the planet to another.
- the environmental heating of the wires transmitting the power to your domicile.
- the increase in methane gas in your immediate environment, because the extra "free" electricity enabled you to eat one more cooked hamburger with onions, thereby causing you to fart more often.

While I share the feeling of most people about protecting the environment, I also realize that I have benefited greatly by using the results of the technology that is hugely responsible for the mess we're in today.

regards,
Daryl.

> I'm serious about people making absolute claims. Yes, I realize that the
> impact on the environment is probably negligible, but it is not absolute zero.
>
> Consider secondary and tertiary effects, such as:

> - the redistribution of energy from one section of the planet to another.

???

> - the environmental heating of the wires transmitting the power to your
> domicile.

That is called Joule effects.

> - the increase in methane gas in your immediate environment, because the
> extra "free" electricity enabled you to eat one more cooked hamburger with
> onions, thereby causing you to fart more often.

Those are "natural" gas

> While I share the feeling of most people about protecting the environment, I
> also realize that I have benefited greatly by using the results of the
> technology that is hugely responsible for the mess we're in today.

True. But it is how we uses the technology that creates mess.

> regards,
> Daryl.
>

LOL
Regards
Marc

In regards to the flow on effect of windfarms and other "environmentally friendly" power sources...

Have we considered the possible consequences that taking energy out of wind might have on natural weather patterns?

I know that when we decided that hydro-electric power was a suitable alternative to fossil fuel power generation we gave little thought to the environmental impact of creating massive lakes where formerly were valleys and rivers. We also gave no thought to the effect of depriving the river downstream of the dam of the natural ebb and flow from season to season.

I'm quite sure that there are environmental problems with wind farms, even if it is that they make us less concerned with our power consumption and leave our heater/coolers on for longer, which cause pollution other than the power used to run them.

I believe that I read somewhere that wind farms do have a negative impact on the environment. Birds can’t see the propellers when they are spinning until its too late.

> In all due respect I don't agree with you and your calculations
> If your puter is eating that much power it must be powered by it's own nuke.
>
> Make sure you turn off your monitor when not in use even with a screen saver
> it uses a lot of juice. Upgrade your power supply is a good choice also.
>
>
> This is off the top of my head and not accurate but close enough that
> I think you have some type of electrical problem....
>
> Rating in watts 300
> Hours per day 24
> Hours per Year 8760
> Kilowatts per Year 2628
> Est. cost per Kilowatt $0.07
> Cost per Year $184.00
> Cost per month $15.00
>
> I just did a power consumption calculation and found that running SETI@Home on
> my desktop computer 24/7 is costing me $50 - $75 per month
>

> > Rating in watts 300
> > Hours per day 24
> > Hours per Year 8760
> > Kilowatts per Year 2628
> > Est. cost per Kilowatt $0.07
> > Cost per Year $184.00
> > Cost per month $15.00
> >
> > I just did a power consumption calculation and found that running
> SETI@Home on
> > my desktop computer 24/7 is costing me $50 - $75 per month


Aren't You Fellows just lucky :) I whish I could buy electricity that cheap..

I run 4 computers: total power consumption 430 Watts. 10.32 KWh/day -- 310 KWh/Month.
Here in Denmark power cost $0.25/KWh. This gives me a bill of $77/month.
Please do not tell me what this will be per Year. My wife will demand it all shut down if she finds out. ;)

ChrisD

> In regards to the flow on effect of windfarms and other "environmentally
> friendly" power sources...
>
> Have we considered the possible consequences that taking energy out of wind
> might have on natural weather patterns?

I'm sure someone did a risk analysis and then realized that, hey, it's way too small to matter.

> I know that when we decided that hydro-electric power was a suitable
> alternative to fossil fuel power generation we gave little thought to the
> environmental impact of creating massive lakes where formerly were valleys and
> rivers. We also gave no thought to the effect of depriving the river
> downstream of the dam of the natural ebb and flow from season to season.

Yes, hydro dams are extremely bad for the environment.

> I'm quite sure that there are environmental problems with wind farms, even if
> it is that they make us less concerned with our power consumption and leave
> our heater/coolers on for longer, which cause pollution other than the power
> used to run them.

I live in Houston. My air conditioner is going to be on 24/7 regardless of my power source. Also, wind power is MORE EXPENSIVE THAN TRADITIONAL POWER SOURCES. Therefore, no, I'm not going to just waste energy, because that wastes money.





------------------------------------


The game High/Low is played by tossing two nuclear warheads into the air. The one whose bomb explodes higher wins. This game is usually played by people of low intelligence, hence the name High/Low.

> I believe that I read somewhere that wind farms do have a negative impact on
> the environment. Birds can’t see the propellers when they are spinning until
> its too late.
>

Crap. I bet you're right. And you know, I have birds flying into my windows all the time too. I should get rid of those.




------------------------------------


The game High/Low is played by tossing two nuclear warheads into the air. The one whose bomb explodes higher wins. This game is usually played by people of low intelligence, hence the name High/Low.

The thing that no one seems to be taking into consideration is the inital required output of "dirty" energy.

The wind mill towers have to be made. The blades have to be sculpted. they have to be transported, they have to be set up and I'm sure they have to be primed. All of this requires a lot of energy, so in effect, no energy is clean.... wind energy "becomes" cleaner, as the amount of energy produced comes to outweigh the amout required to build the generator.

Another thing: wind energy is expensive in NA, but I don't know how expensive it is in Europe. When I was there as a little girl (about 10-13 year ago) my family saw a windmill farm in Southern France. From what I understand, these farms, though not COMMON are not UNCOMMON in Europe. From what I understand, they have to be built in fairly flat areas or at the tops of large hills, so they prolly aren't that common inthe mountainous, more eastern countries. I also don't know if this just gets put into the common electricity mix or if you can get energy that is "just" from wind mills.

just my 2¢


<br />

Feel free to take a look inside my brain

> The thing that no one seems to be taking into consideration is the inital
> required output of "dirty" energy.

Wrong. I do.

> The wind mill towers have to be made. The blades have to be sculpted. they
> have to be transported, they have to be set up and I'm sure they have to be
> primed. All of this requires a lot of energy, so in effect, no energy is
> clean.... wind energy "becomes" cleaner, as the amount of energy produced
> comes to outweigh the amout required to build the generator.

you are absolutely right but it's the same for everything, just think of all
the energy needed (often from focile) to pump, rafine, and transport the fuel
to the gaz station's pump. I am sure that production of wind tower is costless
both as for energy and price, compare to focile sources. The impact on the
environement is also much lower transporting wind tower to their final destination.
Think of all the tankers accidents. Not only accident but they all clean their tanks
at sea between two delivery. I know it because I worked for two years on a tanker
and it made me sick.

> Another thing: wind energy is expensive in NA, but I don't know how expensive
> it is in Europe. When I was there as a little girl (about 10-13 year ago) my
> family saw a windmill farm in Southern France. From what I understand, these
> farms, though not COMMON are not UNCOMMON in Europe. From what I understand,
> they have to be built in fairly flat areas or at the tops of large hills, so
> they prolly aren't that common inthe mountainous, more eastern countries. I
> also don't know if this just gets put into the common electricity mix or if
> you can get energy that is "just" from wind mills.

You can mix both and that's what they do. You can also use only wind tower.
You can have your own if you wish (in some places) and sell you extras to
your local electricity provider. This is also true for solar cell.

Marc

Hi All,
The bottom line is this:
By the time anyone on Earth realizes if this type of Mass computing is detrimental or hazardous to the environment, E.T. will have already heard and seen the mess were in.......and consume us as food!


Just A Lighter Note!
LOL
:-)

Have A Great Day And A Better Tomorrow!!

Regards,

Rocky

> Hi All,
> The bottom line is this:
> By the time anyone on Earth realizes if this type of Mass computing is
> detrimental or hazardous to the environment, E.T. will have already heard and
> seen the mess were in.......and consume us as food!
>
>
> Just A Lighter Note!
> LOL
> :-)

Why not after all. The planet would do pretty well without us...