No. But Hitler hasn't been built up by the US before unlike Osama and Saddam, has he? Both of them are like dogs having bit their feeders hand

Well if you were as familiar with Micheal Moore as you like to pretend, you'd have heard how Bush's grandfather helped Hitler come to power.....All useless propaganda aside.

I agree that our once former allies turned against us. What's your point?

Well, Mr. Moore is the only famous person, the rest are private friends. Normal Americans I met while they spent some time here in Germany and still am in contact with.

Would you feel comfortable with me judging your country by it's actors and the handful of people I know from there.....like this guy I met on the SETI forum who bases his opinion of American politics by his handful of friends and what he sees on TV.

My point is, that the Us government sometimes act like a world's sheriff - a thing they dont have the right for.


Well, for I dream of settle to US once I'm quite interested in the actual politics there, and so I daily read not our German news alone, but three American online newspapers (NY Times, LA Tribune, Deseret News), and some independent boards also to get a clue at least. So I'm not depending on the personal opinions of others alone. If you informed yourself about Germany too, I'd felt comfortable with your judging.
And despite I love the USA, I don't love that right-wing politics Bush is standing for, and I fear that - should the next president be one of his kind again - the country I love so much could become much less attractive to me.

---

Account frozen...

My point is, that the Us government sometimes act like a world's sheriff - a thing they dont have the right for.

Actually we do have the money and resources to influence worldly affairs for the betterment of our country and the world.

Well, for I dream of settle to US once I'm quite interested in the actual politics there, and so I daily read not our German news alone, but three American online newspapers (NY Times, LA Tribune, Deseret News), and some independent boards also to get a clue at least.

I don't know about Desert News or LA Tribune , but the NY Times is about the most politically leftest biased pieces of trash our country has to offer.

You don't learn about politics and law by reading forums and the news. The news is always biased one way or the other, and thanks to Dan Rather, even questionable now. I don't expect you to sit down and read our Constitution, then read our state constitutions, or take any law classes, but at the same time, don't expect me to take you seriously when the extent of your knowledge of my country is what you learned from Micheal Moore and the internet.

So I'm not depending on the personal opinions of others alone. If you informed yourself about Germany too, I'd felt comfortable with your judging.
And despite I love the USA, I don't love that right-wing politics Bush is standing for, and I fear that - should the next president be one of his kind again - the country I love so much could become much less attractive to me.

Well despite the last election results, I think your SOL on that one buddy.

---

Actually we do have the money and resources to influence worldly affairs for the betterment of our country and the world.

But what about the freedom to choose? Don't have other countries such a freedom? or is it only "free" when their acting is according to the interests of some US politicians and their lobbyists?
...

I don't know about Desert News or LA Tribune , but the NY Times is about the most politically leftest biased pieces of trash our country has to offer.

Well, though NY Times is not really right-wing, as well as the Utahn Deseret News, you can't say they are politically left-winged. To read left arguments, I have to go into the internet, because the left winged have (unfortunately) only very little influence in the States. What you call left wing is more what I define as liberal...

You don't learn about politics and law by reading forums and the news. The news is always biased one way or the other, and thanks to Dan Rather, even questionable now. I don't expect you to sit down and read our Constitution, then read our state constitutions, or take any law classes, but at the same time, don't expect me to take you seriously when the extent of your knowledge of my country is what you learned from Micheal Moore and the internet.
...
Well despite the last election results, I think your SOL on that one buddy.

Well, I actually do know the Constitution and The Bill of Rights. I have a copy of them in my book-shelf. And I presume that they are the base of each law and state constitutions in the US.

The Ludlow Amendment
SEC. 1. Except in the event of an invasion of the United States or its Territorial possessions and attack upon its citizens residing therein, the authority of Congress to declare war shall not become effective until confirmed by a majority of all votes cast thereon in a Nation-wide referendum. Congress, when it deems a national crisis to exist, may by concurrent resolution refer the question of war or peace to the citizens of the States, the question to be voted on being, Shall the United States declare war on _________? Congress may otherwise by law provide for the enforcement of this section.

Has there been a referendum before the troops were send to any war since Korea?

---

Account frozen...

Actually we do have the money and resources to influence worldly affairs for the betterment of our country and the world.

But what about the freedom to choose? Don't have other countries such a freedom? or is it only "free" when their acting is according to the interests of some US politicians and their lobbyists?

We don't force other countries to take our money and aid anymore than you force a starving man to eat by giving him a hamburger.....and the simple fact that you think "the opposition" had a choice under Saddam shows just how much you really know about the middle east and what were fighting.

I don't know about Desert News or LA Tribune , but the NY Times is about the most politically leftest biased pieces of trash our country has to offer.

Well, though NY Times is not really right-wing, as well as the Utahn Deseret News, you can't say they are politically left-winged. To read left arguments, I have to go into the internet, because the left winged have (unfortunately) only very little influence in the States. What you call left wing is more what I define as liberal...

I don't even know where to being with this one other than to say you are completely clueless. The left doesn't have "very little" influence in the states. As a matter of fact, they just won an election 3 weeks ago that gives them control of the house and the senate.....they didn't do that with "very little influence".

What I'm saying is that I gave you the benefit of the doubt before, but after a very brief conversation I have come to the conclusion that you really don't know anything about my country at all....

What you call left wing is more what I define as liberal...

What you don't know is that the majority of the left ARE liberals

Well, I actually do know the Constitution and The Bill of Rights. I have a copy of them in my book-shelf. And I presume that they are the base of each law and state constitutions in the US.

Has there been a referendum before the troops were send to any war since Korea?

Plus five for quoting something, but your doubly wrong here. As I indicated before, the problem with you getting your news from TV and biased news sources, is that you don't know that Congress hasn't declared war since World War 2. Not to mention, we were attacked on our homeland, prompting the invasion of the middle east (Except in the event of an invasion of the United States or its Territorial possessions and attack upon its citizens residing therein,}

---

I don't want to make you any angry. But still I differ between right-wing, liberal, and left-wing. Left-wing politics for me is like socialist or communist parties. The Democrats aren't left-wing for me according to this definition, but rather liberal. And that's why I say that the left-winged (i.e. Communist Party or others) have no political influence. IMHO it would be an huge advantage for the States if the really left-winged would win control of the Congress and the House.

Well, I know what you're told you were fighting. Your troops are told to fight for justice and freedom and all that (though in truth it's about oil and treasures of the soil), and are wondering why more and more Iraqis want them to leave. I also wouldn't have them there after that long time.
It's like in Germany, were there still are occupying forces, though the world war has been over since 1945. Well, most of us feel that the US troops here are remainings of the occupying forces and should leave asap as well. Heck, my friends even have the opinion Germany should leave NATO and make their own thing, absent of this "superpower world uber sheriff" thing togeter with the US military, making the NATO fight in wars, which - with the right political strategy - not even had to be started.
To pretend that an attack of a handful of terrorists were a warlike act of an entire nation - that is IMHO the boldest lie of politians since Sept 1 1939, when a German radio sender close to the border was attacked by (German guys pretending to be) "Polish terrorists" - which led to WW2 then.
As far as I know, the US haven't been attacked by Korea, by Vietnam, by Grenada, by Iran, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq or any other land - except 9/11 (which I believe to be done by some independent misled folks having a conviction like those suicide bombers) and Pearl Harbour, the States never have been attacked themselves by other countries (at least not in the 20th century) but had troops on other countries to "defend American interests"

---

Account frozen...

It's like in Germany, were there still are occupying forces, though the world war has been over since 1945.

I can't speak for the US-Germany relationship, but the view from The Bridge is that the Cold War is still on, but alas we can not point to Mother Russia as an ally or as an enemy because we don't have an enemy like we used to.

I believe it was Walt Kelley who said "We have met the enemy, and they is us". I might be wrong about the speaker, but not the speech. We've had a free ride since Berlin. Now it's time to pay the overdue bill, and we've got less than nothing to show for it (because Japan, China, India, Iran, France, Germany, Korea (North and South), Pakistan, the Philippines, Malaya, Sudan, Somalia, and even Palestine kicked our collective socio-, economic, military, and political butts during that free ride)

Maybe if we had done to Baghdad what de did to Berlin - Bomb the living daylights outta the place (and maybe the semi-living lights as well) - followed by a 21st Century Marshall Plan...

---

I don't want to make you any angry. But still I differ between right-wing, liberal, and left-wing. Left-wing politics for me is like socialist or communist parties. The Democrats aren't left-wing for me according to this definition, but rather liberal. And that's why I say that the left-winged (i.e. Communist Party or others) have no political influence. IMHO it would be an huge advantage for the States if the really left-winged would win control of the Congress and the House.

The communist party is communist, not leftist. I don't expect you to fully grasp the situation since you aren't American, but there's a reason no one cares what the Communist Party has to say....it's called Democracy. In American politics , the communists party are considered extremists and are generally to far off the scope to be considered either left or right....that's why we call them Communists rather than leftists.

If you don't wish to upset me, then just accept the fact that you don't know nearly as much about my country or my government as Micheal Moore led you to believe.

Well, I know what you're told you were fighting. Your troops are told to fight for justice and freedom and all that (though in truth it's about oil and treasures of the soil), and are wondering why more and more Iraqis want them to leave. I also wouldn't have them there after that long time.

Gas prices here are still rising, so the implication that it's about the oil is not only a lie, it's downright stupid and based on opinion...and not even your own, but rather that fat puppet you're so fond of.

In the second place, we aren't fighting the Iraqi's, we are fighting the insurgents. Iraq had nearly a 75% voter turn out for their last election. We don't produce those kinds of numbers in the polls here in America.

So ONCE AGAIN, stop getting your news from fat retards and try educating yourself if you want to be taken seriously

It's like in Germany, were there still are occupying forces, though the world war has been over since 1945. Well, most of us feel that the US troops here are remainings of the occupying forces and should leave asap as well. Heck, my friends even have the opinion Germany should leave NATO and make their own thing, absent of this "superpower world uber sheriff" thing togeter with the US military, making the NATO fight in wars, which - with the right political strategy - not even had to be started.

I agree with your stance on NATO...it's a piece of crap. As far as occupying forces, you don't get to make that decision. If you recall, prior to 1945 your country tried to take over the world and exterminate an entire race of people. You're lucky the world even allows you to govern yourself, much less do it unsupervised.

To pretend that an attack of a handful of terrorists were a warlike act of an entire nation - that is IMHO the boldest lie of politians since Sept 1 1939, when a German radio sender close to the border was attacked by (German guys pretending to be) "Polish terrorists" - which led to WW2 then.

Once again, we haven't declared war on Iraq. We are aiding them in fighting the insurgents and helping them to establish a Democratic for of government. One that produce nearly a 75% voter turnout even in the middle of a war torn country! Guess why most American don't care about the opinions of foreigners? It's because your opinions are based on lies, not one or two, but ALL of them.

BTW, the German invasion of Poland started WW2 and that's an accepted fact world-wide. So now you're not only telling lies about my country, you're trying to rewrite history.....and you still wonder why your country is occupied by the winning team.

As far as I know, the US haven't been attacked by Korea, by Vietnam, by Grenada, by Iran, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq or any other land - except 9/11 (which I believe to be done by some independent misled folks having a conviction like those suicide bombers) and Pearl Harbour, the States never have been attacked themselves by other countries (at least not in the 20th century) but had troops on other countries to "defend American interests"

[/quote]

What a coincidence, we never declared war on any of those countries. Try reading an American history book instead of listening to fat retards like Micheal Moore.


We're at the top of the food chain and this is how we do things over here. We didn't ask you if you like it or if you cared. Our objective is to protect America, it's citizens, and our interests, not to please you....

---

It's like in Germany, were there still are occupying forces, though the world war has been over since 1945. Well, most of us feel that the US troops here are remainings of the occupying forces and should leave asap as well. Heck, my friends even have the opinion Germany should leave NATO and make their own thing, absent of this "superpower world uber sheriff" thing togeter with the US military, making the NATO fight in wars, which - with the right political strategy - not even had to be started.

I agree with your stance on NATO...it's a piece of crap. As far as occupying forces, you don't get to make that decision. If you recall, prior to 1945 your country tried to take over the world and exterminate an entire race of people. You're lucky the world even allows you to govern yourself, much less do it unsupervised.

Man, I grew up in a part of Germany which's government was a marionette in Soviet's hands - so I know the urge of freedom myself. And I have the opinion that every country in the world should be unsupervised by others - as long they pass UN rules.

To pretend that an attack of a handful of terrorists were a warlike act of an entire nation - that is IMHO the boldest lie of politians since Sept 1 1939, when a German radio sender close to the border was attacked by (German guys pretending to be) "Polish terrorists" - which led to WW2 then.

Once again, we haven't declared war on Iraq. We are aiding them in fighting the insurgents and helping them to establish a Democratic for of government. One that produce nearly a 75% voter turnout even in the middle of a war torn country! Guess why most American don't care about the opinions of foreigners? It's because your opinions are based on lies, not one or two, but ALL of them.

That's your opinion. I only wonder why suddenly the number of "insurgents" rebelling against their "saviours" is increasing so much - is it so impossible that it could be by reason? That they simply fear to be about to be suppressed again, this time by foreigners? Just leave them alone & watch them from far - and slap their hands when they try to grab something dangerous again, if implicitly needed. IMHO that would be the only right way.
Here's what the Iraqi people want, according to a recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland:

"A large majority of Iraqis think the US plans to maintain bases in Iraq permanently, even if the newly elected government asks the US to leave. A large majority favors setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US forces, though this majority divides over whether the timeline should be six months or two years. Nearly half of Iraqis approve of attacks on US-led forces—including nine out of 10 Sunnis. Most Iraqis believe that many aspects of their lives will improve once the US-led forces leave... Asked if it was a good idea for Iraqi leaders to have agreed at the Arab League conference that there should be a timetable for the withdrawal of US-led forces from Iraq, 87% say it was, including 64% of Kurds, 94% of Sunnis and 90% of Shia."

Is that really what Dubya wanted? The majority of the same people who were just relieved from their terror regime by the American soldiers want their helpers out? Well, Dubya, think about that, let them have their will and don't risk the lifes of hundreds or thousands of soldiers staying in a country where they are not welcome anymore.

BTW, the German invasion of Poland started WW2 and that's an accepted fact world-wide. So now you're not only telling lies about my country, you're trying to rewrite history.....and you still wonder why your country is occupied by the winning team.

No I don't try to re-write history. The invasion into Poland which led to WW2 started as an answer to this "warlike attack" - which turned out finally to have been a fake one - you can read that in each German history book. And: the occupation of Germany by the allies was okay as long as Germany had no own stabile government ... but from the moment on, when there was a government (okay there were two then) all occupying forces should have gone away instead of controlling the countries over decades - this had been the one and only right way. But history tend to repeat itself - including all of it's mistakes.

As far as I know, the US haven't been attacked by Korea, by Vietnam, by Grenada, by Iran, Kuwait, Afghanistan, Iraq or any other land - except 9/11 (which I believe to be done by some independent misled folks having a conviction like those suicide bombers) and Pearl Harbour, the States never have been attacked themselves by other countries (at least not in the 20th century) but had troops on other countries to "defend American interests"

What a coincidence, we never declared war on any of those countries. Try reading an American history book instead of listening to fat retards like Micheal Moore.

Sure, the American government never declared war on those countries - they simply sent their soldiers there.

We're at the top of the food chain and this is how we do things over here. We didn't ask you if you like it or if you cared. Our objective is to protect America, it's citizens, and our interests, not to please you....

Sure it is totally okay to protect the own citizens and the own land... but: against whom or what? There must be an objective threat to protect against - and IMHO no country in the world where US troops were and are fighting (after WW2) was even able to really threaten the Mighty Super Power USA seriously. Well, I'm just wondering...




"Imagine there is war, and nobody goes there"

---

Account frozen...

Man, I grew up in a part of Germany which's government was a marionette in Soviet's hands - so I know the urge of freedom myself. And I have the opinion that every country in the world should be unsupervised by others - as long they pass UN rules.

Funny that you complain that the Communist Party doesn't get enough coverage in our country, yet you complain about growing up under Soviet control.....guess you didn't think that out very well, huh?

As far as the UN, they are a piece of crap too. Don't expect it to stay around after we pull our troops, funds, and financial support.

That's your opinion.

No, it's a fact that we haven't declared war sicne World War 2, and your opinion won't change that fact either.

I only wonder why suddenly the number of "insurgents" rebelling against their "saviours" is increasing so much - is it so impossible that it could be by reason?

Yep, it's easier to attack an American standing on the streets of Baghdad than to hijack an airplane.

That they simply fear to be about to be suppressed again, this time by foreigners?

More like those that lived in the lap of luxury under Saddam are scared they will have to work for a living instead of raping and pillaging the weak. So now instead of murdering for fun and profit, they do it under the guise of preserving their way of life...

Just leave them alone & watch them from far - and slap their hands when they try to grab something dangerous again, if implicitly needed. IMHO that would be the only right way.

Well as I've indicated earlier. It wasn't thousands of your citizens killed on 9/11 while we were sitting back watching From afar. Then of course, there's the fact that you don't pay our taxes or vote in our elections.....guess how important that makes your opinion?

No I don't try to re-write history. The invasion into Poland which led to WW2 started as an answer to this "warlike attack" - which turned out finally to have been a fake one - you can read that in each German history book. And: the occupation of Germany by the allies was okay as long as Germany had no own stabile government ... but from the moment on, when there was a government (okay there were two then) all occupying forces should have gone away instead of controlling the countries over decades - this had been the one and only right way. But history tend to repeat itself - including all of it's mistakes.

I see, so it's ok for Germany to invade Poland under false pretenses and start a world war, but when we do it to the middle east after the worst terrorist attack in the history of our country....We are stepping out of line.

Still wondering why Americans don't care about the opinion of foreigners

As far as occupying Germany, again, you tried to take over the world and exterminate a race of people. You don't get to decide how the rest of the world prevents you from attempting that again.

Sure, the American government never declared war on those countries - they simply sent their soldiers there.

if you know the truth, then try telling it sometimes, THEN I won't have to constantly correct you.

Sure it is totally okay to protect the own citizens and the own land... but: against whom or what?

Radical Islamic terrorists based in the middle east. You'd know that if you were interested in the truth rather than the lies of Micheal Moore.

There must be an objective threat to protect against - and IMHO no country in the world where US troops were and are fighting (after WW2) was even able to really threaten the Mighty Super Power USA seriously. Well, I'm just wondering...

Try telling that to the thousands that were murdered in New York City on 9/11.

---

Sorry, BrainSmashR, but I get the impression that you didn't really read my posts. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

1) I stated that "the left-winged (i.e. Communist Party or others) have no political influence." But okay, I understand: if already Democrats are called left-winged, then all other parties further left must be seen as extremist (May be a heritage of the McCarthy-era?)

2) You: "we never declared war on any of those countries."
I, agreeing with you: "Sure, the American government never declared war on those countries" but adding: "they simply sent their soldiers there." (which was my impression since I heard from Vietnam, but anyway.) I believed this sentence to be clearly understandable. But I was wrong:
You: "No, it's a fact that we haven't declared war sicne World War 2, and your opinion won't change that fact either."
Isn't that a bit strange? Three times the same sentence

3)

I see, so it's ok for Germany to invade Poland under false pretenses and start a world war,

I never said it were ok -I hate war and I hate the Nazis! The old, original ones, and the new ones! I only pointed it as a (may be bad) similarity

but when we do it to the middle east after the worst terrorist attack in the history of our country...

I also never said that such a reaction were wrong - but I said that I believed that these terrorists were independent figures like those suicide bombers - and I don't think that these were sent out by the government of any middle east country. If there had been a 100% proof that this horrible attack (I lost a friend at this day myself) was commanded and organized by the government of a certain middle east country, then I could hesitatingly agree with the decision of your president even to declare war.
But as long such a 100%proof is missing, I can see a similarity between Germany's invasion in Poland, and the (let me put it in quotation marks) "invasion" in Irak. Sorry about that.

4) have you even had a short look on this link I posted? That's not Michael Moore, that's a University who made this poll which I quoted from.
"More like those that lived in the lap of luxury under Saddam are scared they will have to work for a living instead of raping and pillaging the weak." Most of the Iraqis lived "in the lap of luxury", "raping and pillaging the weak"? I rather doubt it. As I remember from a report, most of the Iraqi had less luxury than Americans who live at a trailer park.
I don't know what gave you this impression, but since I try to use different sources to get things confirmed from one side which I learned from the other side, I have mostly at least two "witnesses" for each article I read. Every fact I read about, I search other references and counter arguments, to get my own opinion whether or not this fact is true. Meanwhile I can even see who is a Conservative and who is a Democrate when I talk with them (though they differ not that much, less than SPD and CDU here in Germany). And it's my impression that you are at least a Conservative.

---

Account frozen...

Sorry, BrainSmashR, but I get the impression that you didn't really read my posts. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You are wrong. The "problem" is that the real America this real American is telling you about doesn't match with the fantasy world Micheal Moore and the NY times have created for you.

1) I stated that "the left-winged (i.e. Communist Party or others) have no political influence." But okay, I understand: if already Democrats are called left-winged, then all other parties further left must be seen as extremist (May be a heritage of the McCarthy-era?)

That's not the only reason. Not only has communism never existed in this country, our political ideals are basically the exact opposite. They aren't just far-left, they're off the scope.

2) You: "we never declared war on any of those countries."
I, agreeing with you: "Sure, the American government never declared war on those countries" but adding: "they simply sent their soldiers there." (which was my impression since I heard from Vietnam, but anyway.) I believed this sentence to be clearly understandable. But I was wrong:
You: "No, it's a fact that we haven't declared war sicne World War 2, and your opinion won't change that fact either."
Isn't that a bit strange? Three times the same sentence

We sent troops into South Vietnam to support their government against a hostile takeover by the communist North. The same with Korea too. If you are expecting an apology for trying to defend free countries from communism, I wouldn't recommend holding your breath

3)

I see, so it's ok for Germany to invade Poland under false pretenses and start a world war,

I never said it were ok -I hate war and I hate the Nazis! The old, original ones, and the new ones! I only pointed it as a (may be bad) similarity

It's not a bad comparison, it's a blatant example of your lack of knowledge about my country.

but when we do it to the middle east after the worst terrorist attack in the history of our country...

I also never said that such a reaction were wrong - but I said that I believed that these terrorists were independent figures like those suicide bombers - and I don't think that these were sent out by the government of any middle east country. If there had been a 100% proof that this horrible attack (I lost a friend at this day myself) was commanded and organized by the government of a certain middle east country, then I could hesitatingly agree with the decision of your president even to declare war.

Precisely why we did not declare war against any country or government, but rather against radical Islamic terrorists and those who support their activities....weren't you just complaining about that? :)

But as long such a 100%proof is missing, I can see a similarity between Germany's invasion in Poland, and the (let me put it in quotation marks) "invasion" in Irak. Sorry about that.

The reason you can't see the difference is because you don't know what you are talking about? How many elections did Poland have under Germany? ....and don't even get me started on the holocaust. We're finding the mass graves, not creating them. Furthermore to trivialize the atrocities committed by the Nazi's in WW2 like that is not only disgraceful, but inexcusable as well. It's yet another classic example of why Americans don't care what foreigner think.

4) have you even had a short look on this link I posted? That's not Michael Moore, that's a University who made this poll which I quoted from.
"More like those that lived in the lap of luxury under Saddam are scared they will have to work for a living instead of raping and pillaging the weak." Most of the Iraqis lived "in the lap of luxury", "raping and pillaging the weak"? I rather doubt it. As I remember from a report, most of the Iraqi had less luxury than Americans who live at a trailer park.

That's the point!!!! Saddam and his supporters lived like kings while most Iraqi's lived in extreme poverty.

I don't know what gave you this impression, but since I try to use different sources to get things confirmed from one side which I learned from the other side, I have mostly at least two "witnesses" for each article I read. Every fact I read about, I search other references and counter arguments, to get my own opinion whether or not this fact is true. Meanwhile I can even see who is a Conservative and who is a Democrate when I talk with them (though they differ not that much, less than SPD and CDU here in Germany). And it's my impression that you are at least a Conservative.

---

The "problem" is that the real America this real American is telling you about doesn't match with the fantasy world Micheal Moore and the NY times have created for you.

In my opinion each American has their own view of the "real America". You told me your view, and I can't convince you that there are other possibilities to see it. During my two short visits in the States (both lasted 4 short weeks) I was traveling mostly far away from the normal tourist places. I shared the lifes of hotel guests as well as shelter mission clients. I met wealthy and poor persons, and each one told me their view of the "real America", which differed from person to person due to their experiences, knowledge, faith, and political thinking.
You can believe me, though I still dream (like I have dreamed since I left the States last time Aug 31 1994) of living in the States, I have absolutely no illusions about the life there. I know that since GWB things have gone worse, and I also know whom I had elected if I were an American citizen. You can imagine which person I mean. (hint: Not Michael Moore ;o) )

---

Account frozen...

Let's see if my 2.63 RAC allows me to post:

The Constitution gives Congress the power to declare war, and even though no formal declaration of war has been made since WWII, Congress has authorized every military action by the US since then--Korea, Vietnam, Granada, Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Iraq (did I miss any?) were all authorized by Congress. The basis for having Congress authorize such military action is the same language in the Constitution that allows the legislature to declare war. This authorization is what makes the war in Iraq legal under our laws.

The United Nations is not a world governing body. Read that sentence twice or more until it sinks in. A war is not legal or illegal based on approval or lack of approval by the UN. Yes, the Security Counsel can authorize military action supported by troops volunteered from member states, as we have recently seen in Lebanon (and Korea in the 50's), and in those cases the UN may set limits on the actions of those troops. Even then, each nation controls it's own military forces in coordination with a central UN plan and other (allied) military forces.

The present military action in Iraq is perfectly legal, first, because the US Congress approved the use of US forces, and second, because it enforced and put an end to more than a decade of cease-fire violations by Saddam since the cease-fire was signed after the war to liberate Kuwait. US forces are not "occupying" Iraq any more than their presence in Germany or Japan constitutes occupation there, but US and allied military presence in Iraq is still necessary to fill, however imperfectly, the security vacuum left after the defeat of Saddam's military dictatorship. Hopefully, our troops can leave soon.

The "problem" is that the real America this real American is telling you about doesn't match with the fantasy world Micheal Moore and the NY times have created for you.

In my opinion each American has their own view of the "real America". You told me your view, and I can't convince you that there are other possibilities to see it. During my two short visits in the States (both lasted 4 short weeks) I was traveling mostly far away from the normal tourist places. I shared the lifes of hotel guests as well as shelter mission clients. I met wealthy and poor persons, and each one told me their view of the "real America", which differed from person to person due to their experiences, knowledge, faith, and political thinking.
You can believe me, though I still dream (like I have dreamed since I left the States last time Aug 31 1994) of living in the States, I have absolutely no illusions about the life there. I know that since GWB things have gone worse, and I also know whom I had elected if I were an American citizen. You can imagine which person I mean. (hint: Not Michael Moore ;o) )

Of course all Americans don't see America the way that I do, however, no American told you the invasion of Iraq was equal to Germany invading Poland. You made up that lie all by yourself.

As far as things getting worse since GWB was elected, that may be true for foreign immigrants, but not for Americans. The economy is booming and the unemployment rate is close to an all time low....of course, don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion.

---

The "problem" is that the real America this real American is telling you about doesn't match with the fantasy world Micheal Moore and the NY times have created for you.

In my opinion each American has their own view of the "real America". You told me your view, and I can't convince you that there are other possibilities to see it. During my two short visits in the States (both lasted 4 short weeks) I was traveling mostly far away from the normal tourist places. I shared the lifes of hotel guests as well as shelter mission clients. I met wealthy and poor persons, and each one told me their view of the "real America", which differed from person to person due to their experiences, knowledge, faith, and political thinking.
You can believe me, though I still dream (like I have dreamed since I left the States last time Aug 31 1994) of living in the States, I have absolutely no illusions about the life there. I know that since GWB things have gone worse, and I also know whom I had elected if I were an American citizen. You can imagine which person I mean. (hint: Not Michael Moore ;o) )

Of course all Americans don't see America the way that I do, however, no American told you the invasion of Iraq was equal to Germany invading Poland. You made up that lie all by yourself.

As far as things getting worse since GWB was elected, that may be true for foreign immigrants, but not for Americans. The economy is booming and the unemployment rate is close to an all time low....of course, don't let the facts get in the way of your opinion.

Here some facts which are not in the way oh my opinion, showing up that not all Americans think like you. I presume CBS News is not loo left-wing?

---

Account frozen...

Here some facts which are not in the way oh my opinion, showing up that not all Americans think like you. I presume CBS News is not loo left-wing?

CBS News is very "left-wing". That is the station where Dan Rather was the anchor who put a false story about Bush on the air, knowing the story was not true, simply to embarass the President during the last presidential campaign. Rather was forced to step down (because he got caught), but the news room continues its anti- Bush/Republican/conservative style.

Here some facts which are not in the way oh my opinion, showing up that not all Americans think like you. I presume CBS News is not loo left-wing?

CBS News is very "left-wing". That is the station where Dan Rather was the anchor who put a false story about Bush on the air, knowing the story was not true, simply to embarass the President during the last presidential campaign. Rather was forced to step down (because he got caught), but the news room continues its anti- Bush/Republican/conservative style.

And Olbermann of MSNBC? Or Washington Post? Name it I found a lot of "Anti Bush" articles nowadays. There's no need to be left wing to be anti Bush.

---

Account frozen...

Here some facts which are not in the way oh my opinion, showing up that not all Americans think like you. I presume CBS News is not loo left-wing?

CBS News is very "left-wing". That is the station where Dan Rather was the anchor who put a false story about Bush on the air, knowing the story was not true, simply to embarass the President during the last presidential campaign. Rather was forced to step down (because he got caught), but the news room continues its anti- Bush/Republican/conservative style.

And Olbermann of MSNBC? Or Washington Post? Name it I found a lot of "Anti Bush" articles nowadays. There's no need to be left wing to be anti Bush.

I'm not going to quibble with you about this. There are lots of people who don't like Bush. You can choose to take all they say as absolute truth, or you can look at the facts and decide for yourself. Michael Moore clearly had a bias, as did Dan Rather. Look behind their slanted viewpoints--perhaps you will come to agree with them anyway, but perhaps you will find something different.

There are lots of people who don't like Bush. You can choose to take all they say as absolute truth, or you can look at the facts and decide for yourself. Michael Moore clearly had a bias, as did Dan Rather. Look behind their slanted viewpoints--perhaps you will come to agree with them anyway, but perhaps you will find something different.

Well, what people say - be it Moore, Olbermann, Rumsfeld, even GWB himself (which sometimes also reveals a lot unvoluntarily) - this is merely opinion. Okay, "point of view" may be the better word. And that's as true as any point of view. But what they do, and the influence of what they do - that's what really counts. The Americans I met and talked with - some of them still are my friends - had so different points of view, you sometimes could think they told of 2 or 3 different Americas.

I agree to BrainSmashR's observation:

our political ideals are basically the exact opposite.

While he in my eyes is really a right-wing, in his eyes I am what he would call a Communist, though I never was in a Communist Party: Before the Berlin Wall came down I didn't want to join a party where most members were in only because of promotion reasons, and after that I searched without result for a Party I would fit in. But in general, my political ideals tend to a system where social means are more important then uncontrolled markets, where education and medical care are free of charge for everyone.

---

Account frozen...

Fox backed Hillary.

Therefore Fox must also be left-wing... ?

---