Faith is necessary in science as well as religion. Without it, we cannot even start on the path of self-discovery. I think faith is useful, but not as an end in itself - only as a means to an end. Thus faith is a necessary but not sufficient condition on the path of knowledge.

Susan.

Huh? Excuse me? Explain why you believe this instead of just wantonly asserting it? Are you smuggling in concepts into science and rational thought here as I suspect?

Why would anybody say such a thing? What is it you mean by the word, 'faith'? And if it is different than what the theists mean by it then why do you choose to corrupt science with it here when no credible work of SCIENCE relies on it in the way you do?

In my dictionary there are more than two definitions of the word "faith" but the first two appear to apply to what you two are saying. The first definition (usually the most common understanding of a word is listed as the first definition), is that faith is a "confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, an idea, or a thing." The second definition is, "[a] belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence." Susan seems to be thinking about the first definition, while R/B appears to be talking about the second.

Susan is saying that scientists have to have a "confident belief" in their procedures and the work of others who follow the scientific method. R/B seems to have a problem with inserting a "belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence" into science. I think you are both right, and your difference is merely semantics.

Not quite true, Mr. Koenig.

The usage of the word, 'faith', is often a smuggled in concept that generally means 'trust' or 'confidence' in everyday speak. When someone asserts that the term, 'faith' is essential to the fundamental understandings of science or philosophy they're usually trying to pull wool over someone's eyes by making one thing seem as another.

A scientist doesn't claim to know that the law of gravity is what it is based on a thing called, 'faith'. He knows it by logic and more importantly facts based upon observations of nature.

When others use this nebulous and ultimately dishonest word, 'faith', they are typically speaking of some sort of supposed truth discovered in this undefineable and nebulous world of the supernatural which has nothing whatsoever to do with the realm of science.

That was the character of Susan's post above.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Not quite true, Mr. Koenig.

The usage of the word, 'faith', is often a smuggled in concept that generally means 'trust' or 'confidence' in everyday speak. When someone asserts that the term, 'faith' is essential to the fundamental understandings of science or philosophy they're usually trying to pull wool over someone's eyes by making one thing seem as another.

A scientist doesn't claim to know that the law of gravity is what it is based on a thing called, 'faith'. He knows it by logic and more importantly facts based upon observations of nature.

When others use this nebulous and ultimately dishonest word, 'faith', they are typically speaking of some sort of supposed truth discovered in this undefineable and nebulous world of the supernatural which has nothing whatsoever to do with the realm of science.

That was the character of Susan's post above.

You can be difficult. Let it go. Many words have multiple meanings and even more connotations. I read Susan's post quite differently than you, and though I may be wrong, I don't have the ego to insist, in light of a simpler, more sensible explaination, that I must be right.

You can be difficult. Let it go

There you go again.......not letting someone freely express their own opinion.

Passive aggressiveness has a cure, Tom.

Did you give ANY consideration to what it is I had to say or just rant off all of a sudden?

ps When are you going to create a new thread or just let this one run on for 10,000 posts?

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

You can be difficult. Let it go

There you go again.......not letting someone freely express their own opinion.

Passive aggressiveness has a cure, Tom.

Did you give ANY consideration to what it is I had to say or just rant off all of a sudden?

ps When are you going to create a new thread or just let this one run on for 10,000 posts?

My opinion is that you can be difficult (and not particularly clever). I never tried to stop you from expressing your so-called opinion, no matter how ill-formed or how irritating you sounded. This thread invites opinions, even from people like you . . . but perhaps not from Jeffrey.

With most people off dialup, and with threads like "The last person to post here wins" running at over 9,000 posts, I hadn't thought about renewing this one. But I will get to it this weekend, now that you have mentioned it.

Ok, Tom. You're being snide and rude again. You have a bad tact with people. And when you have the audacity to come on these boards and make the absurd claim that "you are not clever" you come across to me and most people reading this as quite dishonest. You're not even believable in the most remote way.

Go back to your topic of 'defending your faith' if that is what you wish.

You let me know when you're ready to use reason again. I've seen you capable of it.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

This thread invites opinions, even from people like you . . . but perhaps not from Jeffrey.

Of course not...

Because what I stand for is what most seem to hate:

THE WORD OF GOD...

I Corinthians 1:19-20
For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart." Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

I Corinthians 3:19-20
For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

What YOU stand for and 'believe' is just an 'opinion', YOUR 'opinion'... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

This thread invites opinions, even from people like you . . . but perhaps not from Jeffrey.

Of course not...

Because what I stand for, is what most seem to hate:

THE WORD OF GOD...

I Corinthians 1:19-20
For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart." Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

I Corinthians 3:19-20
For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their craftiness," and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

What YOU stand for and 'believe' is just an 'opinion', YOUR 'opinion'... ;)

Well spoken, and quoted, Sir.

---

TimeLord04
Have TARDIS, will travel...
Come along K-9!
Join Calm Chaos

Ok, Tom. You're being snide and rude again. You have a bad tact with people. And when you have the audacity to come on these boards and make the absurd claim that "you are not clever" you come across to me and most people reading this as quite dishonest. You're not even believable in the most remote way.

Go back to your topic of 'defending your faith' if that is what you wish.

You let me know when you're ready to use reason again. I've seen you capable of it.

I had forgotten how thin-skinned you are. Well, I'm not going to apologize for being "snide and rude" to someone who has been both those things to me and others in this thread. As for your rant about my "audacity", didn't you just a few post ago accuse me of "not letting someone freely express their own opinion"? So now you seem to be trying to stop me from expressing my opinions: about the use of the word "faith"; about your lack of wit; and about your refusal to consider the ideas of others without belittling them. You are welcome to stay and discuss, but if you choose to leave, that wouldn't bother me at all.

This thread invites opinions, even from people like you . . . but perhaps not from Jeffrey.

[snip]

Well spoken, and quoted, Sir.

Actually, even Jeffrey can post here, I was trying to lighten the mood a little by making a small joke. I happen to have Jeffrey filtered, because he rarely posts his own ideas. He just quotes passages that often do not fit the conversation and for which he gives no explaination.

[Edit]: So it doesn't matter to me if he posts here.

Actually, even Jeffrey can post here, I was trying to lighten the mood a little by making a small joke. [Edit]: So it doesn't matter to me if he posts here.

Post 294:
I have Jeffrey on ignore, but people still quote him (for example, look at the Religious Thread), and just reading his drivel and taunts irritates me no end. Please delete his posts.

Oh, and you've never answered my question about whether I can have people, like Jeffrey, banned from "my" threads, like I and others were banned from Angus' thread.

Post 300:
Oh, and by the way, this is my thread. Just as you told folks not to post in Angus' thread, why don't you tell Jeffrey not to post in my thread.

I'm confused... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Actually, even Jeffrey can post here, I was trying to lighten the mood a little by making a small joke. [Edit]: So it doesn't matter to me if he posts here.

Post 294:

I have Jeffrey on ignore, but people still quote him (for example, look at the Religious Thread), and just reading his drivel and taunts irritates me no end. Please delete his posts.

Oh, and you've never answered my question about whether I can have people, like Jeffrey, banned from "my" threads, like I and others were banned from Angus' thread.

Post 300:

Oh, and by the way, this is my thread. Just as you told folks not to post in Angus' thread, why don't you tell Jeffrey not to post in my thread.

I'm confused... ;)

Jeffrey,
I have known for a very long time that you are confused, but I didn't think you were so deceitful. Your links do not go to the posts you have quoted, and what makes that even worse is that those quotes were taken out of context so people can't see what was actually meant.

I said those things to make a point about moderators, not to seriously have you banned from any thread. Your attempt to smear me by posting what looks like inconsistent statements is despicable, but not unexpected.

You can be difficult. Let it go

There you go again.......not letting someone freely express their own opinion.

Passive aggressiveness has a cure, Tom.

Did you give ANY consideration to what it is I had to say or just rant off all of a sudden?

ps When are you going to create a new thread or just let this one run on for 10,000 posts?

Robert, I think you are shifting the goalposts here. What I tried to say is that faith often acts as a 'springboard.' After that comes logic, scientific understanding and the quest for proof. I believe in aliens, yet there is no logic, no evidence on earth for my belief. It is almost like believing in God. All I possess is a scant knowledge of science and paltry knowledge of the nature of the universe, yet my belief in aliens holds strong. And yes, faith can be very subtle.
Susan.

---

'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
Eleanor Roosevelt.

It's my birthday today. Happy Birthday to Me.

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'No one can make you inferior without your consent.'
Eleanor Roosevelt.

It's my birthday today. Happy Birthday to Me.

Snappy Birthday!

Robert, I think you are shifting the goalposts here. What I tried to say is that faith often acts as a 'springboard.' After that comes logic, scientific understanding and the quest for proof. I believe in aliens, yet there is no logic, no evidence on earth for my belief. It is almost like believing in God. All I possess is a scant knowledge of science and paltry knowledge of the nature of the universe, yet my belief in aliens holds strong. And yes, faith can be very subtle.
Susan.

Another instance of faith in science is the belief that any problem can be solved with the proper application of technology. For many problems, this seems not to be true, but those who have that faith continue to surprise the world with new inventions, new applications for old technology and even whole new technologies.

Remember the old saw about knowing something can't be done? The ones who have the faith that it, whatever it is, can be done are the ones who find a way to do it. The ones who rely totally on empirical, rational tools of thought rarely make the leap to truly new ideas, solutions to problems, etc.

It's my birthday today. Happy Birthday to Me.

Many happy returns and wishing you many more.

It's my birthday today. Happy Birthday to Me.

Happy Birthday, Susan!

I didn't think you were so deceitful.

deceitful:
Marked by deliberate deceptiveness especially by pretending one set of feelings and acting under the influence of another.

Nope... Not me...

II Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry.

I'm just doing my job... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I didn't think you were so deceitful.

deceitful:
Marked by deliberate deceptiveness especially by pretending one set of feelings and acting under the influence of another.

Nope... Not me...

II Timothy 4:1-5
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom: preach the word, be urgent in season and out of season, convince, rebuke, and exhort, be unfailing in patience and in teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfil your ministry.

I'm just doing my job... ;)

...and I do believe I am just doing mine, too... ;-D

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TimeLord04
Have TARDIS, will travel...
Come along K-9!
Join Calm Chaos