> > Once again you take a phrase out of context and inaccurately respond to
> it. I
> > choose to pick and choose the contracts I work because I can afford to do
> so.
>
> Of course, with my Social Security payments that you intend to finish your
> life on.

[More reality check....] You have a "Social Security" number, right? That is an account number for which your SS payments are
credited to. Your payments are not used to pay someone elses retirement. They are used to pay yours! Wake up and get
your "facts" straight before you swallow you foot to the knee.

> >....
>....

My Time: Sunday, 30 January 2005 - 10:18 AM --800 (Pacific Standard Time)

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

Somebody tell the foreign kid that I don't care what they do in other countries, because he's not listening to me. You don't pay my taxes, vote in our elections or support our President.....BTW, where did I claim to have compassion for those outside of my community much less those outside of my country? You're not even smart enough to realize that I wouldn't care if Hitler came from California, because he lead the German army and masterminded the halocaust

As for SSI, I'm forced to pay into it by law, that doesn't mean I will be forced into collecting it, just like I'm not forced into accepting any other type of Social Aid even though I pay for that too.

It's called being a man and taking care of myself.

---

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Ok, that's not going to work. Let's try something else....

L8R....

---

My Time: Sunday, 30 January 2005 - 12:24 PM --800 (Pacific Standard Time)

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

> tim,
>
>


<a>First link[/url]

>

<a>Second link[/url]

>

Let's see if these links work now....

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

<a>First link[/url]

http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:_d_W_3nTiN8J:story.news.yahoo.com/news%3Ftmpl%3Dstory%26u%3D/ap/20050113/ap_on_go_pr_wh/social_security_roosevelt+roosevelt+ap+news+grandson&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Hey guys, what's wrong with this URL? I try to make a link out of it and it disappears. All I end up with is the text
on the first line. What gives?

L8R....

---

My Time: Sunday, 30 January 2005 - 12:57 PM --800 (Pacific Standard Time)

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

Somebody tell the foreign kid that I don't care what they do in other countries, because he's not listening to me.
I'll relay the message, but which one?

As for SSI, I'm forced to pay into it by law,...
Aren't we all? I don't see an op-out for Social Security on W2s or W4s.

...that doesn't mean I will be forced into collecting it, just like I'm not forced into accepting any other type of Social Aid even though I pay for that too.
Agreed. I was listening to Marketplace on WNYC, and a point was raised that I think is crux: Is Social Security a safety net, or a pension plan?

I think that question is what's aggravating the problem. Social Security as envisioned would work, but I doubt that FDR could have foreseen the baby boom, dropping infant mortality, increased life expectancy, and the improvements in medicine that is now beginning to take a toll on Social Security. A parallel could be drawn with the DoD envisioning ARPAnet: Nobody could have expected the internet to turn out the way it did (as a commercial tool) instead of a communications relay network.

I digress. But the point is that we need to distinguish between pensions and safety nets. I'm hoping that the Executive and Legislative branches will address that.

My main kvetch is this: I put money into Social Security for my benefit - Whether I use it or not depends on preparations on my part during my lifetime (ie: retirement investments). If I should need that money, it should be there. If I don't need it (as I expect), then after my death and only after my death should it be used to help others. Like I said earlier, I'm sick and f'ing tired of paying the pills for the little old lady down the street.

____________________

Siran: I think that the link's URL is either malformed (possible) or too long to be accepted by the PHP (likely).

---

It's because this forum has a limit on the number of characters in HTML format.
If your link exceedes that then it wont show up and gets stripped out.

Don't you read the UT?

Paul, I got the links Thanks
Siran thanks for trying to help!

It is a very interesting letter; I feel Mr. Roosevelt is sincere in his
thoughts but I disagree with his statement, I think his granddaddy would approved of the debate and restructuring of SS, The Government does not want to dismantle SS, They want it to change with the times and make it better..

If I was in the position to invest some of my SS funds I would have.

---

>....

____________________

Siran: I think that the link's URL is
> either malformed (possible) or too long to be accepted by the PHP (likely).
>

I copy/pasted it in a new tab and it took me to the document Paul wanted Tim to see, so it works that way.

L8R....

---

My Time: Sunday, 30 January 2005 - 07:28 PM --800 (Pacific Standard Time)

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

> It's because this forum has a limit on the number of characters in HTML
> format.
> If your link exceedes that then it wont show up and gets stripped out.
>
Don't
you read the UT?
>

Yeah, figures as much. The URLs were from a search done on gooogle and you know how they add a whole
bunch of garbage to them.

Very, seldom.... I read PC World, Computoredge and my Star Trek magazines. I get the news by listening to it on
TV while I'm out here or on the Internet doing whatever.

L8R....

---

My Time: Sunday, 30 January 2005 - 07:34 PM --800 (Pacific Standard Time)

---

CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

1.James Roosevelt Jr

"To compare the courage needed to create Social Security "to the courage it will take to dismantle the most successful social program in history is simply unconscionable," Roosevelt, 70, wrote.

2.Jim Abrams
ASSOCIATED PRESS
"Bush wants to remake Social Security by letting workers divert some of their payroll taxes from the retirement system into personal investment accounts. Critics argue that such a move is too risky and would undermine the system's financial solvency".

1.The Bush Admin does not want to dismantle the program, they want to add options for the younger generation, If SS dosn't get fully funded than the younger gens will only recieve 77% of the benifits that are returned today.

We can blame it on our parents who made way to much woopie in the late 40's to mid 50's. The baby boomers are starting to retire and drawing thier SS. Roosevely could not have known about Boomers...


2.The key is Some of thier payroll taxes, Not all of it that would be a desaster.. It's not remaking SS it is adding options.....


Tim

---

PZ started this thread with informed projections and figures
And legitimate questions
I know squat about what the government is doing with what's been snatched
From everybody's payday
I just dont trust GWB to tell the truth
Why would anyone?

tim,

An excellent opening to get back on target and discuss what's happening...

The ideologues and the dogmatic individualists can start another thread to proselytize in. --( preach their faith in an attempt to convert others to their brand of faith) ,

so instead, ....let's discuss what is on the table before us now.

I'd like to see the sources for the information you are quoting from.

You say 'Bush' and 'the government' have a plan to help us, and all of my research so far, refutes what you assert.

They have a 'plan' but who benefits from that plan is, as far as I have been able to tell, not us.

Maybe there is a report or a study out there that I have not seen yet.

I've tried, for almost a year now, to read what 'all' sides say. I've read the material from whichever 'side' most anyone can identify.

I've also paid a little more attention to what the independant analysts have to say.

People with no vested interest in the outcome, often have a very good perspective if they are also professionals who live and breath this kind of thing.

I know I'm not qualified to just venture my own assessment without having something to cite for some support.

I've offered links, I've quoted many studies.

Is there a verifiable source to bolster your claim that Bush and the government are trying to make SSI better?

I have yet to find anything like that.

(not being a hard ass here, ... really, ...just askin' ......)

---

I've got a feeling that 90% of the easy questions are going to be answered in the SotU address - The tough 10% are going to be skirted the same way that W's avoided the word "privatization".

You know that the State of the Union address was pushed back into February so that he can tout Iraq's elections, right?

I know that in order for Democracy to succeed there must be respect for the majority as well as the minority, but sometimes I wonder whether or not I could do worse than those currently in power...

---

Before anyone thinks the State of the Union speech will reflect a realistic policy or even a realistic assessment of anything believeable, look to the inaugaral speech.

Bush said Freedom 27 times, he said Liberty 15 times...

The next day, the White House issued a statement saying that there would be no policy changes related to the speech.

They stated that the speech was very carefully crafted to not tie the flowery speech to any actual action which may support the rhetoric.

The State of the Union address will have about as much veracity,(truth), as the last one.

None of you have forgotten the last State of the Union address, have you?

We know now, that what wasn't true when the speech was made, was known then by the speechwriters and the liar that gave the speech. (not picking sides, just stating fact.)

No, it won't be someone else who provides accountablity to us, it is us who must watch very carefully and demand accountability from the government.

---

And that's why I said "sometimes I wonder whether or not I could do worse than those currently in power..."

I wonder if either party would be willing to apprentice someone into office...

---

I assure you we have 'apprenticeship' training for political office now.

Trouble is, it more closely resembles indoctrination training than training to become

proficient in a reputable craft.

The artisans of political art who are in power today are masters of artiface.

Ethics in government have been put aside.

That will not change until we exercise our own political will and force that change.

That's why it's important that we understand what it is that's really happening now, so that our arguments cannot just be categorized as partisan rhetoric.

We need facts, and once we have them, we will be better able to defuse the partisan rhetoric. then we will be better able to demand with one voice, .....accountability
.
Then we can have better governance.

With that in mind, we should examine the myths surrounding SSI and the truth behind the proposals to 'fix' it.

Help to protect and strengthen SSI is needed. Irrationality is not.
.

---

The Republican's 103 page 'playbook' plan for dismantling Social Security used to be on Senator Rick Santorum's web site.

Evidently, there were so many easily refutable claims and half-truths included in the document that it was removed.

Evidently, there were enough responses pointing to the deceptions, that it has been removed from view.

The peek behind the curtain revealed a bit too much for comfort. So it was removed from sight.

Can't have the rabble seeing what they are up to.... so they've removed the 'temptation'.

Seems they 'tipped their cards' too early in the game. And thought better of it later.

In addition to the deceptive and easily disputable facts and figures they claim show social security in crisis, the playbook had GOP talking points on the issue, and quotes from some Democrats that, (taken out of context), 'supposedly' show support for privatization. (piratization is more closely the correct term)

It had sample constituent letters to model fake grassroot support on. It proposed drumming up this 'support' by suggesting and providing the words to put in their mouths 'preforming' how their followers should think and react. Little more than faked documents fed to the acolytes to be disseminated in the home papers under the guise of honest public opinion.

It had different sample speeches, crafted for maximum effect, by professional wordsmith services and specifically, psychologically directed to one, audiences over 50 years of age and two, a different speech for audiences under 50 years of age. Wouldn't want to mess up the scheme by voicing the wrong 'keywords' to the wrong audience. If you're going to tell half truths, tell them to the 'proper' half of the population, right? Can't have everyone knowing what you really mean.

It included recaps of reports from several candidates who ran and won while pushing forms of piratization, (suggesting that Republicans won't pay a political price for dismantling social security while adding an additional $2 trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years). So encouraging to those Republicans who are hesitant or wavering from the party line push.

Of particular note is how they prefaced their 'selling' points:

Only one example....
__________________________________________
Don't say, "Social Security lifts seniors out of poverty":
People don't appreciate all that Social Security does, and believe that despite the program, many seniors are still in poverty. Instead, talk about how Social Security is a "floor of protection" that keep seniors out of the most dire circumstances.
__________________________________________

So, they think it better not to tell anyone that Social Security does lift seniors above the poverty level. Don't say 'poverty level'.

Rather it is much better to use the tactic of 'newspeak' to disquise the facts with obsfucations(flim-flam).

------------------------------------

Can this sort of thing make anyone proud to be even associated with it?
.

---

>
> In addition to the deceptive and easily disputable facts and figures they
> claim show social security in crisis, the playbook had GOP talking points on
> the issue, and quotes from some Democrats that, (taken out of context),
> 'supposedly' show support for privatization. (piratization is more closely the
> correct term)

It is called 'partisan politics'. It is something that they ALL do in Washington, DC. How do you tell that a politician is lying? Their lips are moving. Both of the major parties (Democrats and Republicans) are no longer concerned with what is good for the USA and its citizens, but instead concerned with how to get and maintain political power for themselves.

>
> It had sample constituent letters to model fake grassroot support on. It
> proposed drumming up this 'support' by suggesting and providing the words to
> put in their mouths 'preforming' how their followers should think and react.
> Little more than faked documents fed to the acolytes to be disseminated in the
> home papers under the guise of honest public opinion.
>
> It had different sample speeches, crafted for maximum effect, by professional
> wordsmith services and specifically, psychologically directed to one,
> audiences over 50 years of age and two, a different speech for audiences under
> 50 years of age. Wouldn't want to mess up the scheme by voicing the wrong
> 'keywords' to the wrong audience. If you're going to tell half truths, tell
> them to the 'proper' half of the population, right? Can't have everyone
> knowing what you really mean.

This tactic was perfected by the Democrats, especially back during the early to mid '80s. One cannot blame the Rebublicans for using it as well. Even you are using it. Words like 'deceptive' and 'piratization'. A simple 'we do not agree with their conclusions' is not 'emotionally charged' enough for you, it seems.

>
> It included recaps of reports from several candidates who ran and won while
> pushing forms of piratization, (suggesting that Republicans won't pay a
> political price for dismantling social security while adding an additional $2
> trillion to the deficit over the next 10 years). So encouraging to those
> Republicans who are hesitant or wavering from the party line push.
>
> Of particular note is how they prefaced their 'selling' points:
>
> Only one example....
> __________________________________________
> Don't say, "Social Security lifts seniors out of poverty":
> People don't appreciate all that Social Security does, and believe that
> despite the program, many seniors are still in poverty. Instead, talk about
> how Social Security is a "floor of protection" that keep seniors out of the
> most dire circumstances.
> __________________________________________
>
> So, they think it better not to tell anyone that Social Security does lift
> seniors above the poverty level. Don't say 'poverty level'.

While SocSec DOES lift some seniors above the 'poverty level', it does not do so for ALL of them. If SocSec was the ONLY source of income he had (like it *IS* for many seniors), my 80-year old father would be unable to make ends meet. He is fairly healthy, but he still has medical expenses that medicare does not cover of somewhere between (depending on the month) $750 and $1000. Many seniors are a LOT worse off. SocSec *IS* a 'floor of protection' that keeps them out of the most DIRE circumstances. I have several aunts and uncles that have to decide every month whether to eat or to buy their medication, because SocSec is ALL they have. So, this talking point turns out to be... uhh... you guessed it... TRUE.

>
> Rather it is much better to use the tactic of 'newspeak' to disquise the
> facts with obsfucations(flim-flam).
>
>
As I have said before, BOTH the Democrats and the Republicans do this.

------------------------------------
>
> Can this sort of thing make anyone proud to be even associated with it?
> .
>

No, I am not proud of all the political crap going on with BOTH of the major parties. It is why I left the Republican party back in the mid-80's. Both of them should be working for the good of the USA and its citizens. Instead BOTH of them are only working to get and maintain political power, and NEITHER one of them gives a rodent's backside WHAT they ruin in the process.

This is why I say it is time for some governmental reform here.

Have a nice day.

PS: If the current president was a Democrat, and was pushing this plan for SocSec, I am quite convinced you would be all for it, Mr. Zimmerman. The phrase 'Yellow-Dog Democrat' comes to mind...

---

https://youtu.be/iY57ErBkFFE

#Texit

Don't blame me, I voted for Johnson(L) in 2016.

Truth is dangerous... especially when it challenges those in power.

LAF

They're Anti-Bush, not really pro-democrat......and my guess is that it doesn't have jack to do with Social Security.

That why the majority of their complaints fall on deaf ears. We've already figured out that they can't be pleased.

---

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