LAF

When/Where did I claim to be against government? I specifically said I am against Social Aid. However, since I am a rational adult, I make compromises in my daily life, like paying income taxes, in exchange for living in America.

One of the freedoms that grants me is the right to speak my mind about any issue I choose, like Social Security for instance.

I believe it was Socrates who said that by agreeing to live in a country, you also agree to abide by it's rules.


Regardless of what you may or may not think, I promise I'm more patriotic than 99% of the folks you will ever meet, but that doesn't mean I agree with every single aspect of our governmnet

.

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2) "I have accident insurance, as well as being a Civil Service employee.

I draw a check even if I can't work, and the accident insurance will pay on top of my paycheck.

Granted, everyone doesn't have Civil Service protection, but everyone doesn't make the same crappy wages I do, and in America, each of us has a choice where they want to work and how they will spend their money."

______________________________________________________________


BrainSmasher, If you are a civil service employee you make more, Receive more benefits than most of us working Class, Don't Civil Service employees have their own Unemployment type of insurance and Workman’s comp? I believe your benefits are much greater than the rest of the working class stiffs trying to make a living. And also if your a carpenter civil service employee you are not on the bottom rung of the pay scale.

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My last full-time job was while I was in college, at college: $5.15/hr, 20 hrs/wk (NYS limitation), no overtime, no medical, and no college credit. The last paycheck was for $84.97. 17.5% never came to me: $15.35 to Social Security (My apologies to S&auml;nger for using the negatively-connotated abbreviation previously), $2.68 to taxes. This translates into $4,418.44/yr if I were working and studying full time - Far below poverty anywhere in the US for my age group. Adjusted for 40 hrs/wk, it's still far below poverty for Long Island.

Last job offer I was given was $6.50/hr flipping burgers - a whopping 35¢/hr more than the current minimum wage for flipping burgers. Let's do the math:

($6.50/hr × 40 hr/wk × 52 wk/yr) - 17.5% = $13,520 - $2,366 = [b]$11,154[/b]

Try living in the slums and ghettos of the City on that, regardless of insurance - You can't, and that's why I'm still stuck where I am.

Civil service pays quite nicely (My mailman gets $22.50/hr + union + benefits, and he's been working about 5 years now), so cut the crap.

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> BrainSmasher, If you are a civil service employee you make more, Receive more
> benefits than most of us working Class,

While it is true my benefit's package is better than most jobs, my gross pay is only $767 Bi-weekly, or roughly $383 a week BEFORE taxes, insurance, retirment, and that's jsut what they take out of my check. I STILL have my rent, car insurance, student loans, utilities and entertainment expensises to deal with. The extra benefits are how they justify the low wages and it's the same from state to state. Not sure where you got your information, but who ever told you state employees make a lot of money needs to be slapped in the mouth for telling you one of the biggest lies ever told!!

> Don't Civil Service employees have
> their own Unemployment type of insurance and Workman’s comp?

Nothing that any other full-time job with benefits doesn't have.

>And also if your a carpenter civil service employee you are not
> on the bottom rung of the pay scale.

You are sadly mistaken. If my title was actually carpenter, then my starting pay would still only be $10.75 an hour, or about $2 an hour more than I make now.

>My last full-time job was while I was in college, at college: $5.15/hr, 20 >hrs/wk

Hate to break the news to you, but 20 hours a week is NOT full-time employment, that's considered half. However, if you DO decide to get a real job, you'll find that you will often put in more than 40 hours in one week.

>Civil service pays quite nicely (My mailman gets $22.50/hr + union + benefits, >and he's been working about 5 years now), so cut the crap.

I am neither a mailman, nor do I work for the federal government. I am a state employee. So instead of telling others they are full of crap, why don't you get a REAL job instead of complaining like you are the only person in the world with problems.

You're flipping burgers because you want to, no one is forcing you to be there.


You want to see some real life math. 383 x 52 =$19916 per year.

According to my W2, I grossed $21,345. Ask yourself how many hours of over-time I had to work to make that extra 2 grand. Here's a hint, once every 4 weeks, for 7 days straight, I go on 24 hour trouble call (only paid if I go out) in case a sewer get's backed up or a door get's kicked in, a pipe springs a leak, or any other "emergency" that would cause damage or injury to the tenant or dwelling.

Like I said, I work for a living.
.

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> You're flipping burgers because you want to, no one is forcing you to be
> there.
>
I am glad you are sheltered in a job where you can look out at us and make these bold comments. I sincerely hope you do not get severly injuried on your job and have to rely on the system you shun..

As it is I am a very capable Sr. Network and Systems Engineer and having difficulties finding a job. If it continues much longer all the money I have save, and all my investments will be gone. It's not that I am incapable of working, or that I am not trying to find work. It all boils down to the jobs simply aren't there... Hi-Tech Jobs post 9/11 are few and far between. How do you insure against a terrorist attack destroying your future? What insurance can I buy? At this moment Social Security is all I will have..

My father-in-law worked construction for years. If you live on the east cost I would bet there is not a day that goes by that you have not driven on a road that he help build or a seen a smoke or water tower that he was not part of building. He injuried his back on a job and after the workmens comp ran out all he had left was SSI. I guarantee that he would not take kindly to your remarks here.

My own father worked for the same company for years as a machinist. Despite his lack of formal education he retired with a nice pension. His pension and his life-time health benefits went out the window when that same company went bankrupt. He would not have taken kindly to your remarks either!!

My motheri-in-law worked for the same compnay for 54 years, then one day the fired her. Poof she was gone.. No her and my father-in-law live on the investments and money she saved all of these years. Investments that were weakened by 9/11. If she live as along as her mother did then she will run out of money. What insurance should she have bought? She would not take kindly to your "get a job" remarks either.

My mother had a bad ankle and a lack of formal education that prevented her from getting more then miminal wage jobs, but she always worked at whatever she could find. When she turned 50 she could no longer work because she could not stand long enough and did not have the skills required of a desk job.. SSI and later Social Security was her last hope. She would have beat you soundly for your remarks!!

These are the things that Social Security was designed to protect.. It has already failed!!!

Please continue to wear your rose color glasses.. For your sake I hope that someday the roses don't die..

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I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

can't seem to make a live link out of this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/27/business/worldbusiness/27pension.html?oref=login&ei=5094&en=82af08c4c479186f&hp=&ex=1106888400&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all&position=

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> can't seem to make a live link out of this:
>
>
> <a>Pauls Link[/url]

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I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

> I am glad you are sheltered in a job where you can look out at us and make
> these bold comments. I sincerely hope you do not get severly injuried on your
> job and have to rely on the system you shun.

Hope is the rope that leaves you tied in knots. Instead of hoping it never happens, I am taking steps to prevent that scenairo

It's not that I am incapable of
> working, or that I am not trying to find work. It all boils down to the jobs
> simply aren't there... Hi-Tech Jobs post 9/11 are few and far between.

So what you're really saying is that the job want isn't there.

Well let me ask you something, do you think I went to college for Carpentry? So I could spend all day in the projects tearing out termite damage or replaing roofs?

Again, here's some real life for you. The local TV station closed, my choice was move or seek alternate employment. Now instead of a Broadcast Journalist, I'm a Carpenter.


> He injuried his back on a job and after the workmens comp ran out
> all he had left was SSI. I guarantee that he would not take kindly to your
> remarks here.

Sounds like he's got children that should have stepped up to the plate. Didn't he take care of your wife before she was capable of taking care of herself? Did he do it by complaining about the job market, or did he do it with blood, sweat, and tears?



>His pension and his life-time health benefits went out the window when that same
> company went bankrupt. He would not have taken kindly to your remarks
> either!!

I refer you to the above reply, substitute yourself in place of your spouse. In addition, have you ever heard the phrase "diversify your portfolio". Again, kind of why I took out the extra insurance.

> She would have beat you
> soundly for your remarks!!

Violence is often the resort of the uneducated. No surprises there either.

> These are the things that Social Security was designed to protect.. It has
> already failed!!!

Then why are you trying to preserve it?

> Please continue to wear your rose color glasses.. For your sake I hope that
> someday the roses don't die.

Doesn't matter if the roses die, I'm prepared.

In my world, there are only 2 kinds of can't.

If you can't do the job,
Then you can't stay.

.

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>
> > I am glad you are sheltered in a job where you can look out at us and
> make
> > these bold comments. I sincerely hope you do not get severly injuried on
> your
> > job and have to rely on the system you shun.
>
> Hope is the rope that leaves you tied in knots. Instead of hoping it never
> happens, I am taking steps to prevent that scenairo
>

You are a fool if you think that the "insurance" you seem to be paying for will protect you till you die..


> It's not that I am incapable of
> > working, or that I am not trying to find work. It all boils down to the
> jobs
> > simply aren't there... Hi-Tech Jobs post 9/11 are few and far between.
>
> So whatt you're really saying is that the job YOU want isn't there.
>
>

No I am saying that people that are hiring don't want a 51 year old Sr. Network Engineer. The want a 24 year old Network Engineer..

> > He injuried his back on a job and after the workmens comp ran out
> > all he had left was SSI. I guarantee that he would not take kindly to
> your
> > remarks here.
>
> Sounds like he's got children that should have stepped up to the plate.
> Didn't he take care of your wife before she was capable of taking care of
> herself? Did he do it by complaining about the job market, or did he do it
> with blood, sweat, and tears?
>

Your argument here loses merit.. If I and my wife were to support him as well as us then our saving would run out long before our children are capable of supporting us.. Again this is what Social Security is supposed to prevent.

>
>
> >His pension and his life-time health benefits went out the window when
> that same
> > company went bankrupt. He would not have taken kindly to your remarks
> > either!!
>
> I refer you to the above reply, substitute yourself in place of your spouse.
> In addition, have you ever heard the phrase "diversify your portfolio".
> Again, kind of why I took out the extra insurance.
>

Your insurance is not going to protect you if you don't have the money to continue to pay for it.. The "LOAN" you are counting on is required to be paid back.. Furthermore my parents made enough money to pay the bills. There wasn't enough to invest to diversify a portfolio..

> > She would have beat you
> > soundly for your remarks!!
>
> Violence is often the resort of the uneducated. No surprises there either.
>

I resent your remarks now.. Both my parents were uneducated because they were both born in a time where child labor laws were non-existant and both of them were forced to quite school to help support the family.. Something I am sure you have never experienced

> > These are the things that Social Security was designed to protect.. It
> has
> > already failed!!!
>
> Then why are you trying to preserve it?
>

I fight to preserve it because of people like you who don't have a clue what the real world is like and don't really care.


> > Please continue to wear your rose color glasses.. For your sake I hope
> that
> > someday the roses don't die.
>
> Doesn't matter if the roses die, I'm prepared.
>

I sincerely hope you are, but I do not beleive you are prepared as you think you are..

> In my world, there are only 2 kinds of can't.
>
> If you can't do the job,
> Then you can't stay.
>

No matter how idiot proof you make a thing.. A better more improved idiot will come along..

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I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

Dear Brainsmasher

I have decided that i am going to pull out of this thread I cannot play the game you are playing. It is for your entertainment purposes only. I realize that no matter the circumstance you'll have an answer that dose not represent real life. You cannot be married or have a long term relationship because you are full of yourself.

If you took your own advice and got a real education you most certainly would have a better paying job than you supposedly have. If you are really a carpenter apprentice, (if you are not a carpenter but in property maintenance (jack of all trades) than you must feel that you’re Education was a waste of time. You went to college to have an 8.00 hr career. Please if you really believe what you say here in this thread I may suggest you seek some help, you’re going to need it when the real world rises up and slaps you in the face.

My intent is not to insult you, but I had to express my feelings. You’re really not living in the real world


Tim

Tim

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>
> My intent is not to insult you, but I had to express my feelings. You’re
> really not living in the real world
>

Tim,

You do realise that it is hard to be perfect in the eyes of someone who thinks they are.. Leave him to his own rosey world and pray he does not learn the truth the hard way..

Pete

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I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

By the time the Re[publicans finish with their tax cutting agenda, war mongering in the guise of freedom and democracy, and stuff pork into multi-national corporations, this conversation about Social
Security will be null and void. Face the facts and look at the figures; the United States government is going to be bankrupt before the Bush presidency ends.

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Account frozen...

Tim,
>
> You do realise that it is hard to be perfect in the eyes of someone who
> thinks they are.. Leave him to his own rosey world and pray he does not learn
> the truth the hard way..
>
> Pete

I tried....

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>Face the facts and look at the figures; the United States government is going to be bankrupt before the Bush presidency ends.

That rose colored foresight can be a bitch...

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> >Face the facts and look at the figures; the United States government is
> going to be bankrupt before the Bush presidency ends.
>
> That rose colored foresight can be a bitch...
>
>

Finally you said something you and I can agree on!!!

---

I'd rather speak my mind because it hurts too much to bite my tongue.

American Spirit BBQ Proudly Serving those that courageously defend freedom.

The bamboozlepalooza begins!

From the Boston Globe: "President Bush, facing a chilly reception on Capitol Hill on his plan to overhaul Social Security, said yesterday he would take his case directly to the American people, crisscrossing the nation to galvanize support for partially privatizing the 70-year-old federal retirement system."

And so begins the campaign of fear, said Chicken Little.

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> You are a fool if you think that the "insurance" you seem to be paying for
> will protect you till you die.

You're the fool if you think I want protection. I'm a man, not a child, and capable of standing on my own 2 feet. However,an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. You do the math.


> No I am saying that people that are hiring don't want a 51 year old Sr.
> Network Engineer. The want a 24 year old Network Engineer.

Ahhh, so now you're being discriminated against. Exactly how many times do you intend to change the story, or have you now found a version you like?

What happened to seeking employment outside of your field. It's not unheard of, and better than welfare for everyone involved INCLUDING the taxpayer


> Your argument here loses merit.. If I and my wife were to support him as well
> as us then our saving would run out long before our children are capable of
> supporting us.. Again this is what Social Security is supposed to prevent.

Maybe if you would actually work instead of waiting on your dream job, then this would not be the case....but far be it from me to suggest you acutally support your tribe instead of asking the taxpayer to do it


> Your insurance is not going to protect you if you don't have the money to
> continue to pay for it.. The "LOAN" you are counting on is required to be
> paid back.. Furthermore my parents made enough money to pay the bills. There
> wasn't enough to invest to diversify a portfolio..

Lack of preparation on their part does not make for an emergency on mine. The could have gotten an education. It takes more to succeed in life than merely skating by.

Smart men learn from their mistakes. Wise me learn from the mistakes of others


> I resent your remarks now.. Both my parents were uneducated because they were
> both born in a time where child labor laws were non-existant and both of them
> were forced to quite school to help support the family.. Something I am sure
> you have never experienced.

And yet, you sit there UNEMPLOYEED BY CHOICE and say they would be mad at ME for MY comments?


> I fight to preserve it because of people like you who don't have a clue what
> the real world is like and don't really care.

You're not preserving it....YOU DON"T HAVE A JOB, you're only taking and telling me I should pay more because you don't want to work, you want a "dream job"

> No matter how idiot proof you make a thing. A better more improved idiot will
> come along.

Exactly why abuse of Social Aid takes place. By your own admission, you are not in need, and capable of work, you are just holding out for a "better" job.

>You cannot be married or have a long term relationship because you are full of >yourself.

married no, relationship, yes. Imagine that, me not making the same mistakes you have, and I'm not government dependent.

This is my real life, and the real life of my parents and even living grandparents (single women not on SSI). Now ask yourself what I think about a man who cannot provide for himself as well as my 83 and 84 year old grandma's.

Bush is the best thing to happen to this country since Regean, sorry you bleeding heart liberals are having such a hard time dealing with the reality that you not only lost the election, but that you and your kind have been proven WITHOUT A DOUBT to be the minority in this country.

You see, I live in the real world, and it's been kicking my ass. I simply refuse to give up and submit myself to the slavery of welfare like many of you. It's called pride and I WOULD rather die than be dependent on someone else for my existence.

.

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The bleeding heart thingy was good for a real laugh. I myself consider myself a moderate, neither liberal or conservation, although I must admit the Barry Goldwater was my hero, but his form of conservativism has been prempted by the radical religously orientated ayitolah crusaders of the right wing. They have brought in more big government and government intrusion into the lives of American citizens than any previous administration. Go figure!

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Account frozen...

>Bush is the best thing to happen to this country since Regean

I understand mushbrain perfectly now.

It only took 10, count em, 10 major tax increases to pull the nation out of the mess Ronnie 'Raygunzap' Reagan caused with his tax cuts.

We may not survive Preznit Lawnornaments cuts....

and the smasher has been drinking the Koolaid by the kegfull.

We're sure to be saved if we just follow mushbrain down the yellow-brick road to La La land.

(my nickname ain't freeper for nutin'.)

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For clarification:
I retired from the military after 26 years 11 months. I'm not 'living' on my
paycheck that I delineated in my previous post. I've put two kids through college (still paying) and have your basic three bedroom ranch in suburbia. The car I drive is a 91 Escort (bought new) with 169,000 miles on it (g). My major point
is that alot of my coworkers are trying to live on the same paycheck I showed you.
Too many of them have a part time job, a couple have another full time (40hr/week) job. Some of them are well educated with good skills..just no 'breaks'..some of them are what you may expect. A couple are going back to school for various classes to try and make themselves more marketable as it where.
And 'civil service' isn't really all that dependable anymore. My daughter works
for a large metropolitan zoo. They are talking about massive personnel cutbacks,
etc....and its even a union job.
The bottom line is social security is an aid for people that are fiscally unable
to save money by barely having enough to live on now...not being irresponsible and having things like a nice car or cable TV....just enough money for rent, groceries, clothes, etc...p

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