> > a little remedial education is my suggestion, perhaps it's not too late
> for
> > you to discover that some of you 'beliefs' are unfounded.
>
>
> Think you could come up with a less typical liberal response, or do they use
> the same brainwashing tactics on all of you?
>
> As for SS being a Savings Account? What a crock. The part aobut paying for
> your parents is true, the part you are missing is that the average age of
> Americans is increasing.....that measn FEWER children to pay for OUR SS. That
> means THEIR income tax goes up or we do without.
>
> Supply and Demand. I'm doing my part by making plans to NOT be a government
> dependent when I am to old to work for a living......just one of those crazy
> things us Republicans do in our spare time.
>
I guess the little fact that the Congress has been "borrowing" money from SS for YEARS to balance the budget, what a joke, and spend money for God only knows what, doesn't matter huh?
Yes there are fewer people coming along, but if the money wasn't "borrowed" in the first place there would be PLENTY of money in the future!

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> Of course we deserve it, it’s been promised to us since WE started paying into
> the system.

Exactly what I said, 99% of the population feels they deserve it REGARDLESS OF THEIR NEED

> Abuse, No way. The program isn't going down the tubes because of itself. It's
> the IOU's The money was “borrowed” for other uses, that’s what causing the SS
> program to falter. If that money was invested at even an average return rate
> SS would be very solid.

Likewise, if it was only given to those in need as opposed to those who merely paid into the system, as it was supposed to be, then it would remain solid.


> Respectfully, Brainsmasher. You must be part of society that has been very
> lucky in life or your making great money... You are 33yrs old You still feel
> invincible, Lets take your income away through no fault of your own. You think
> oh hell I'll just get another job, mm Right probably can at 33. Let’s take
> the same scenario and move your age up to 55 and you loose your job. What are
> you going to due? The 33yr old has taken the job your qualified for and now
> you have to accept an income that is far less that of what your worth....

1) lack of job skills or education are the fault of the individual, not society, therefore society should not be held accountable.

2) I have accident insurance, as well as being a Civil Service employee. I draw a check even if I can't work, and the accident insurance will pay on top of my paycheck. Granted, everyone doesn't have Civil Service protection, but everyone doesn't make the same crappy wages I do, and in America, each of us has a choice where they want to work and how they will spend their money. You can save for a rainy day, or not, invincibility has nothing to do with it.

> Now you take someone like me, at 44yrs old, got the Flu! The Flu and I coughed
> so hard a blood clot formed and went to my heart, killing the heart muscle. If
> it wasn't for SSI I would be on the street or dead...

If you read some of my earlier posts, then you know I recently took out extra insurance, one of which is specifically for heart trouble, the other is specifically for cancer. It's cheaper if you get it at a younger age and lock in your premium.

There's a saying that most of the teachers and staff had posted in their offices during (and probably still do) my college days. Lack of preparation on your part does not make for an emergency on mine.



> Anyway, my point is your 20% scenario doesn’t hold water the cost of living
> rises faster than increases in salary. Food, Clothing, Mortgages, Car Loans,
> only the citizens above the poverty level can afford all those things. Real
> life not everyone is a Brainiac! Just average.

As I stated, by the time you retire, all of your major expenses should be taken care of like Mortgages and Car payments.

> BrainSmasher I am not ranting on you, This is my view on the SS situation...

No offense taken, I love heated arguments,and I'm not saying you don't deserve SSI either, I'm just saying it's an avoidable situation for the majority of it's consumers with just a little preparation

>This comes from a person who has a job that makes it possible for him to own a >car, a home or even afford groceries.

As I stated, lack of job skills or education is the fault of the individual, not society, therefore, society should not be held accountable. Even if you can't find a decent job, you could farm, hunt, or even move.

>While you are sitting in your fancy office earning the money it takes to buy a >house and a car .......

Slow down there Tex. I'm a carpenter for the Housing Authority. I spend all day in the projects and I'm not even close to owning a house. I work for a living!!

Again, as I stated earlier, lack of job skills or education is the fault of the individual. I went to college on student loans AND I do maual labor for a living. If someone's highest goal in life is to flip burgers at Micky D's then that is THEIR OWN FAULT

>Yes there are fewer people coming along, but if the money wasn't "borrowed" in >the first place there would be PLENTY of money in the future!

Likewise, if I didn't have to pay for government dependents, there would also be plenty of money in the future.

To all of those over 21 flipping burgers for a living:

Get a REAL job!!!

.

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One of the problems of 'solving' the problems of SS is that it cannot be addressed from only one perspective.

brainsmasher has some points.

Some valid and some maybe debatable.

But what I get sorting through it all is he feels it's not unlike welfare and he thinks it can be improved or 'solved' by administering it like welfare.

(that's not meant to be accusatory, brainsmasher)

So let's look at 'fixing' SS from that perspective.

If it's welfare..... let's means test it.

Now, wait ten minutes for a whole nother sector of the populace to come out of the woodwork......



My point being we have to look at a number of different steps all taken as a whole. SS is a very dynamic system and we need to think in dynamic or many varied ways to 'fix' it.

We will never arrive at an equitable solution as long as we only want to fix what concerns only 'our' side. We need to expand our thinking to include what happens to all those who can benefit from a strong and healthy SS system.

A healthy and equitable SS system can even alleviate or ease some of brainsmasher's concerns that he may be carrying too many others on his back.

Rather than dismiss his concern, we should 'include' his concern in the mix.

"The true measure of a man is how he treats someone who can do him absolutely no good."
- Samuel Johnson (1709-1784)
.

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The only "problem" I have with SS is that it is Social Aid, and like ALL forms of social aid, it's designed to make you dependent on the system with very little hope of ever getting off once you get "on".

MY solution would be 100% elimination, but that's one of the reason's we live in a Democracy :)

.

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> The only "problem" I have with SS is that it is Social Aid, and like ALL forms
> of social aid, it's designed to make you dependent on the system with very
> little hope of ever getting off once you get "on".
>
> MY solution would be 100% elimination, but that's one of the reason's
> we live in a Democracy :)
>
So let me understand this, You say SS is Social Aid, Ok what do you call your extra insurance?

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>So let me understand this, You say SS is Social Aid, Ok what do you call your extra insurance?



"Few things are harder to put up with than a good example."

- Mark Twain (1835-1910)
.

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>>>To all of those over 21 flipping burgers for a living:
Get a REAL job!!!

O to be a happy-go-lucky carpenter with all the bases covered

May you never run short of something to drive a nail into...cc

> > The only "problem" I have with SS is that it is Social Aid, and like ALL
> > forms of social aid, it's designed to make you dependent on the system with
> > very little hope of ever getting off once you get "on".
> So let me understand this, You say SS is Social Aid, Ok what do you call your
> extra insurance?

I have some problems with your definitions of Social Security Systems (I won't write the 2-letter abbrevation, it's too loaded for me as a german, especially at holocaust rememberace day).

From my POV there are more aspects to such a system, then just 'social aid'.
A mandatory health insurance is another part of it.
A mandatory pension fund of some kind as well.
A minimum wage, that's high enough to make a living on the payments of one job, is another part.

And I believe, that there are some things, the 'society' as system of people living together have to organize somehow. In a democracy, what's better then let those elected representants of the socity form the framework of this systems.

---

Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

> So let me understand this, You say SS is Social Aid, Ok what do you call your
> extra insurance?

I call it insurance, as in something you are not forced by the government to pay for me. It comes out of my pocket by my choice AND I can cancel my payments at any time without suffering legal reprocussions.

>"Few things are harder to put up with than a good example."

Agreed, do you have one?

>May you never run short of something to drive a nail into.

It's called a trade, something I earned in addition to a college degree. Even if every tree on the planet died and wood became a thing of the past, I'll STILL have my education to fall back on, that I paid for through student loans (still over 17k in debt)

>And I believe, that there are some things, the 'society' as system of people >living together have to organize somehow

Of course you do, German's are socialists. I realize you don't follow that form of government anymore, but it's still in your heart.....look at what you just stated. Paraphrased, it reads "Society needs to help the individual, rather than the individual needing to help himself".

Giving someone an equal share when they clearly are not equal is Communisum, which is basically 1 step away from Socialism, therefore I will never willingly support any type of Social Aid.

.

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> >And I believe, that there are some things, the 'society' as system of
> people living together have to organize somehow
>
> Of course you do, German's are socialists. I realize you don't follow that
> form of government anymore.

That was the other part of my country (from my POV). I'm former BRD (FRG), not the former DDR (GDR). It's the one that you americans, together with the english and french, first occupied and then gave the new democratic system. Thanx for that btw, no sarcasm or irony.
We over here call it 'soziale Marktwirtschaft' (social market economy). It's a compromise between super-egomanic free-market-fetishism, and socialism. It's not perfect still, as we also produce too little offspring to succeed as a society, but we try to change it within the system.
Both extremes are disgusting, the extend to which you are personally disgusted depends on you general political preferences, but 'amerikanische Verhältnisse' (american circumstances) are usually something to fear.
Compromise is a virtue.
A caring society is a society with values.
A egoistic society is evil.

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Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

More differences between insurance and Social Aid.

1) My premium won't go up as my wages do like the amount of SS I pay into the system will because my premiums are locked in whereas the amount of SS you pay is based on your income.

2) My insurance builds equity after a while. That means I can borrow money against it, or cash out completly without having to wait until I am 62-65.

3) The beneficary of my life insurnace does not have to be an immediate family member, it can be my girlfriend, her children, or the next door neighbor.

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> A caring society is a society with values.
> A egoistic society is evil.

Your country spawned quite possibly the most "evil" man the world has ever known, our country freed Europe from his tyranny. We didn't do that by caring about what he wanted, we did that by going in and kicking butt like we knew that we could.

I think that says alot about which society spawn what type of people.

However, I've never been to Germany, much less even visited. My references about Social Security are not really about your country, because I am flat-out ignorant to the way things work over there.

In America, SS is an avoidable situation.

.

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What I really don't get about 'the amis' is their smoothly molding of opposites, at least opposites for me.
(I generalize, apologies for that, but it's easier to write for me in a foreign language this way;-)
They claim to be all 'Values', even claim to have decided their election an 'value issues', but nothing could be farther away from christianity then giving to the rich and taking from the poor (as is inherent in tax-breaks).
'Care for your next like for yourself' (dont know KJV, but that's the essence) is the very central point of beeing christian, as they claim to be. Not that I am any more, but I was a very strong beliver some years ago. And IMHO Francis of Assisi, Camaro, Romero, Cardenal and the like are real christians.
And that is the root for the european Social systems, caring for your neighbour. Even the calvinist dutch have a more caring system then what I gather from this thread and the news exists over there.

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Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

The obvious reply is that we are not all Christian and you are being foolish if you think we are. Personally, I don't worship any imaginary beings.

.

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> Your country spawned quite possibly the most "evil" man the world has ever
> known, our country freed Europe from his tyranny. We didn't do that by caring
> about what he wanted, we did that by going in and kicking butt like we knew
> that we could.

I already thanked 'you' (read: the americans) for that, but of course it was about 'caring'. Not caring for this scum Hitler, but caring for his victims.

BTW: Germany was just for 15 years a democracy, and became that because of a lost war. No excuses for my ancestors to vote for him, but therer is no comparsion between the third Reich and nowadays germany. With the same reasoning I could call you 'slave torturer', which would be nonsense.

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Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

> The obvious reply is that we are not all Christian and you are being
> foolish if you think we are.

As I said, I was generalizing, and that shamelessly.
As you've been never here, I've been never over there. I just read, watch and listen to the news, films and books. There seemed to have been an agreement from FOX to Boston Globe (at least on the net) about the main reason for GWBs second coming: The 'christian majority' with their 'value based decision' to vote for the right. I would call most of the prominent ones, that made it to the newespapers 'christian taliban' (knowing the one as well as the other personally), but all I can do is read more than one opinion and decide on my personal background who to believe.

> Personally, I don't worship any imaginary beings.
There is an anarchy sign in your avatar, correct? So feel yourself excluded from the christian bunch;-)

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Gruesse vom Saenger

For questions about Boinc look in the BOINC-Wiki

I've been following this thread for a bit and I'd like to throw in some hard data.
Its payday, I've got my payslip. Its a pisspoor job with the same grade of paycheck. Living in a state with an unemployment rate of 7.3 percent (per CNN). Not many jobs, seemingly very few good jobs, so you do what you have to do to get by.
Gross pay: $480.00 (40 hour week)
Fed income tax: 20.31
Social security: 29.76
Medicare: 6.96
State income tax: 18.72
city tax: 2.17
Minus life insurance, no medical (that would be another $62.50 a week) and $10.00/week to the United Way (a charity). Net take home $398.08.........and we all know how big a slice of the American Dream that will buy!

So, we all know how fast the Federal government spends money, so how come SS is in danger when I'm paying more to them, and getting money back on my fed tax too?
This week the low temps have all been into the below zero (fahrenheit) range so I'm really looking forward to the gas and electric bills...stay warm...p

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> do to get by.
> Gross pay: $480.00 (40 hour week)
> Fed income tax: 20.31
> Social security: 29.76
> Medicare: 6.96
> State income tax: 18.72
> city tax: 2.17
> Minus life insurance, no medical (that would be another $62.50 a week) and
> $10.00/week to the United Way (a charity). Net take home $398.08.........and
> we all know how big a slice of the American Dream that will buy!
>

Thanks for your Post, This is real life, the hard facts, can you imagine having a mortgage (700-800 month) That would leave 400 for the rest of the bills and food. Peristalsis, Do you have a Wife and Kids? Either way it sucks!

BrainSmasher, You would tell Peristalsis to move, go back to school, Get a better Job. Thats nice in a fantasy world.

Any more real lifers out their?

Whats your story? Inquiring minds want to know!



Tim

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1) I didn't imply that Germany of today is like the 3rd reich anymore than you implied that people concerned with their own self preservation are evil.

2) I couldn't care less about your religious views OR what you think about mine. It's not like you OR your god will do anything about it anyway.

3) If you are taking home nearly $400 a week, then your take home is roughly $100 more per week than me. If you can't make ends meet, then you need to adjust your spending habits.....like not donating over $500 dollars a year to charity when/if you cannot affored it. That money would be MUCH better spent on medical insurance which is "too expensive" for you at just $22 extra per month than you currently donate to charity. BTW, when you DO go to the hospital/free clinic, who pays for that, ME or the United Way?

4) No education or job skills, wife, kids, mortgage, all choices YOU made and my tax dollars should not be held accountable for your poor judgment and/or planning.

5) you want real life? My car is nearly 10 years old and has more than 107k miles. I borrowed over 20k to go to college and am paying it back at $200 a month (106 payments left). HALF of my income (excluding overtime as with the other example) is spent on rent and student loans alone. After I pay off my student loans, then I will look for a house to buy and consider starting a family. I did it this way ON PURPOSE so that, to the best of my ability, I would never be a burden to my family or society.

It's called PLANNING my life instead of waiting for problems to become emergencies. There's a reason America is the only remaining superpower, and it's because of Americans like me who SUPPORT the system rather than those who leech off of the government because they feel they deserve a hand-out merely because they exist.

Remember, the Earth as well as your country were here first, they owe you nothing.

.

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brainsmasher,

You make it sound like you are independant of the malaise that effects the rest of us.

You seem to want to think you are somehow set apart from society and your accomplishements are all through your efforts and that you don't benefit from society, you only get ripped off by society, society is just a burden for you to bear because you are forced to contribute.

You aren't so independant as you like to think you are.

Government is formed, societies are formed for the purpose of doing collectively what we cannot do individually. Collectively, we decided to create SS. Collectively we created your job. Collectively we created the infra-structure around you, the roads, the fire service, police, schools, et al, ad finitum.

You benefit from these creations as much as the next guy. Without a government formed Rule of Law, you would have no protections from illegal encroachments on your liberties.
Without a government protecting you, you would be at the mercy of those stronger or smarter.

We, collectively, have made decisions through our representatives and other elected officials, to do all those things which 'allow' you the 'choice' to pursue your individual liberties and choices. And you're a burden on that system, as we all are.

Your advice was to move if you don't like your lot in life, that personal choice was the only thing dictating one's quality of life, so anything which makes someone less 'successful' than they wish to be, is all a matter of bad choices they make.

The 'example' I speak of which you may not see....... why the hell haven't you moved?

Go, into the wilderness with you. You won't do that, because you like what you get from all of us.

So either get out, or quit your bitching and pitch in. There's work to do.

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