1 small note, explosion or explosive decompression can't be ruled out!

so, let's leave a terrorism somewhere else...until proof is found! ;)

Every Investigator understands the following:

Never prejudge the outcome.

Terrorism MUST, of course, be included.

Anyone excluding any possible outcome: Must never be placed in any responsible position. Regarding this, or any other investigation.

there's no need for MUST in terrorism, except in your american heads...

it's only a possibility...not a MUST, just slight possibility!

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non-profit org. Play4Life in Zagreb, Croatia, EU

1 small note, explosion or explosive decompression can't be ruled out!

so, let's leave a terrorism somewhere else...until proof is found! ;)

Every Investigator understands the following:

Never prejudge the outcome.

Terrorism MUST, of course, be included.

Anyone excluding any possible outcome: Must never be placed in any responsible position. Regarding this, or any other investigation.

there's no need for MUST in terrorism, except in your american heads...

it's only a possibility...not a MUST, just slight possibility!

KLiK...

Those who believe as you.

Are also part of the problem.

Silly and inconsequential attacks from those, whose countries and peoples may have committed worse acts.

And if they ever become an Important Empire. May commit worse actions:

Are...

Silly and inconsequential.

KLiK... Understand this.

The American Empire is tired and fading. The responsibility for World Order and Peace. Is now your responsibility.

Good luck!

Oh, really...you gonna say those things, even after all the evidences that there were not atrocities or genocides done from our side...only isolated cases!

But let me tell you a little about "your good peace cop" & atrocities of your fathers:
1. genocide on all Indian tribes
2. dropping not 1, but 2 nuclear bombs on civil population - only country in the World that has done this atrocities on civil population! Just so you don't bankrupt from a war...
3. several occupations of nations like: Alger, Nicaragua, Philippines, Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, Panama, Grenada, Iraq, Haiti, Afghanistan, etc.

So, everywhere you came - you just made a mess...didn't clean it up, 'cause of "your peacekeeping interests" in those countries...& now you wanna lecture someone about how "good fellow" you are, by saying someone weren't entitled to defensive war in recent history?!

typical american - he always thinks he's right!


p.s. look at the CIA files about operations Flash & Storm...then we can talk further! ;)

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non-profit org. Play4Life in Zagreb, Croatia, EU

Not only that, KLiK...

Do you happen to know what drew the U.S.A. into WW2? No? It was Japan attacking Pearl Harbor killing thousands of our citizens.

IF we hadn't dropped the bombs to end the war, my other half would probably not be here right now. Her father was part of the invasion force that was going to invade Japan just before the bombs dropped. It was predicted that there would have been some 50% casualties on our side alone.

If I were you I would freshen up on some world history before slamming MY country.

And lets not forget 9/11, the date that put us on the alert to watch for further terrorist attacks.

It seems to me that in your mind it is OK for other countries to do things, but not ok for us to protect our country. "Do as I say, not as I do." Bah!

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

[edit]I say we get this thread back on topic.[/edit]

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CAPT Siran d'Vel'nahr - L L & P _\\//
Winders 11 OS? "What a piece of junk!" - L. Skywalker
"Logic is the cement of our civilization with which we ascend from chaos using reason as our guide." - T'Plana-hath

Why did Japan attack the USA? Because of USA hegemony preventing Japan from getting the resources it needed by conquest. Even hear of the Greater South East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere?

What is the USA doing in the Spratly's? Hegemony against China attempting to prevent it from getting the resources it needs by conquest.

Did the USA need to drop the bomb? Define need. Would the USA have won without it? Yes. Would more people have died without it? Yes. Define need. Was it expedient to drop it, yes. But that is part of waging war, finding the most expedient way to kill the enemy or make them lose the will to fight. The truth behind war is ugly.

Back to topic.

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Hi KLiK...

You have no understanding, as is usual.

ALL are with sin. Remember Nanjing?

I have never excused British, nor American Terror Bombings and Burning to Death, of Civilians and their Children.

BTW: If you will study the Final Days of the War against the Rape Promoting, and Mass Killing of Innocents, Japanese War Lords.

You will understand that the Two Atomic Bombs saved at least One Million Casualties. And stropped a National Suicide, the Japanese Wars Lords were preparing for.

you don't get it do you?

you can't condone one terror with another one!
yes, Japs did some terrible things to China...
but that doesn't say it's OK to drop a nuclear atomic bomb on civil people!

nor does it condone for a "triple bomb carpet on Dresden by USA & Brits"...
& nobody answered for those! NOBODY!

Not only that, KLiK...

Do you happen to know what drew the U.S.A. into WW2? No? It was Japan attacking Pearl Harbor killing thousands of our citizens.

IF we hadn't dropped the bombs to end the war, my other half would probably not be here right now. Her father was part of the invasion force that was going to invade Japan just before the bombs dropped. It was predicted that there would have been some 50% casualties on our side alone.

If I were you I would freshen up on some world history before slamming MY country.

And lets not forget 9/11, the date that put us on the alert to watch for further terrorist attacks.

It seems to me that in your mind it is OK for other countries to do things, but not ok for us to protect our country. "Do as I say, not as I do." Bah!

Keep on BOINCing...! :)

[edit]I say we get this thread back on topic.[/edit]

No, you wouldn't drop a bomb 'cause you'd bankrupt if the war continued!
& Japs didn't end the war 'cause of the bombs...they were afraid of Russians coming from the west & north!
so check your history...but please don't use the books for primary school education! ;)

& every time somebody says something, you say 9/11...we, it was 15y ago!
in the meantime, you:
- invaded Afganistan...didn't look that good! not even Russians couldn't conquer that...you believe you can?
- invaded Iraq...funded ISIL there, now it's gone rogue...didn't work out that well, did it?
- try to overthrown Syria with funding ISIL...still not going well!
- made efforts to overthrown Gadaffi in Lybia...now it's a harbor of Islamist there...spreading across Africa!

that "terrorism" is like a FOG...you can stick it to anyone & then go to war with that country...how convenient?
you know, people are getting tired of that "terrorism", like we're getting tired of Jews saying "holocaust"...yes, it was terrible, but move on!
so to Jews & Americans, I can only say:

;)

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non-profit org. Play4Life in Zagreb, Croatia, EU

This thread has been split from the "EgyptAir flight MS804 disappears from radar" thread as the arguments were starting to overshadow that thread and its purpose.

Please continue that discussion here.

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Thanks, Bernie!

Now where was I? Oh yes, firebombing

Dresden. Bad and a war crime.

Tokyo, somehow this one never gets mentioned ...
http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/firebombing-of-tokyo

Almost 16 square miles in and around the Japanese capital were incinerated, and between 80,000 and 130,000 Japanese civilians were killed in the worst single firestorm in recorded history.

One has to ask why? Was this deliberate firebombing of a civilian target somehow accepted? Was it because it came after Dresden? Or is it consigned to the dustbin of history because of the atomic bombs? Or was it used as the justification for the atomic bombs?

Someone used the word "necessary" in the discussion. Is war necessary? Is winning war necessary? When you can formulate an answer to those, then and only then should you be permitted to ask if any action in a war is necessary.

Assuming the war was necessary and winning it was necessary, then we can begin to address the question if expediency in winning is necessary. The citizen expects that his tax dollar will be expediently spent. The citizen also expects his conscripts to be expended only when necessary. I'd think that means that winning by spending the least amount of tax dollars and with the lowest causality count of conscripts is the expectation. What value in tax dollars a conscript has is a vulgar question, but war is vulgar, and it must be asked and answered.

Now to 1945. By the time of the Tokyo firebombing it should have been obvious to the leaders of the Axis and Allies who was going to win. After that became obvious was any further war necessary? Pig heads said yes, because they already had too much invested. War continued. To end it, the necessary condition now was to shock a pig head into the realization that it was over. In some cases that only comes when they see their own blood spurting forth.

The atomic bombing did not end the pig headed attitudes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ky%C5%ABj%C5%8D_incident for those of you who forgot that many in Japan still would not surrender.

Could the Allies have won without the atomic bomb? Yes. What would not dropping it have meant? Likely many more firebombings of cities over a period of a year, making Dresden and Tokyo the new normal of war. The invasion forces would have suffered terrible losses and the Japanese may well have fought to the last man as on Saipan, as evidenced by the July 6 Banzai! charge. http://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/battle-of-saipan

Realizing he could no longer hold out against the American onslaught, Saito apologized to Tokyo for failing to defend Saipan and committed ritual suicide.

Before his death, however, Saito ordered his remaining troops to launch an all-out, surprise attack for the honor of the emperor.

This begs the question which applies to modern terrorism, if your enemy is willing to commit suicide, how does this change the rules of war?

<ed>typos

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So far, what a load of baloney! What's with all this "war crimes" regarding the USA & UK?

With a few exceptions, WWI was mainly Armies v Armies & Navies v Navies. Post WWI, we see an increased arms race due to the technologies arising from WWI, which brought this: -

2nd Sino-Japanese War 1937-1945

"Although the Japanese quickly captured all key Chinese ports and industrial centres, including cities such as the Chinese capital Nanking and Shanghai, CCP and KMT forces continued resisting. In the brutal conflict, both sides used ‘scorched earth’ tactics. Massacres and atrocities were common. The most infamous came after the fall of Nanking in December 1937, when Japanese troops slaughtered an estimated 300,000 civilians and raped 80,000 women. Many thousands of Chinese were killed in the indiscriminate bombing of cities by the Japanese air force. There were also savage reprisals carried out against Chinese peasants, in retaliation for attacks by partisans who waged a guerrilla war against the invader, ambushing supply columns and attacking isolated units. Warfare of this nature led, by the war’s end, to an estimated 10 to 20 million Chinese civilians deaths."

The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939

"The Condor Legion was a unit composed of volunteers from the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) and from the German Army which served with the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War of July 1936 to March 1939. The Condor Legion developed methods of terror bombing which were used widely in the Second World War shortly afterwards. The bombing of Guernica was the most infamous operation carried out by the Condor Legion. Hugo Sperrle commanded the unit's aircraft formations and Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma commanded the ground element."

1940, Germany mainly concentrated on UK radar sites, shipping & military airfields. Regardless of whether or not it was a navigational error or not, the turning on London was the turning point in the RAF's commitment to the war - instead of dropping leaflets, they dropped bombs.

For those bringing up Tokyo & Dresden, stop ambushing the USA & UK by solely concentrating on those countries, look to history itself.

For those bringing up Tokyo & Dresden, stop ambushing the USA & UK by solely concentrating on those countries, look to history itself.

Ah, the "They did it first!" playground justification.

The crusade. Now the Muslim is justified in flying planes into the World Trade Center. I suppose the same justification for the IRA bombs. Justification for all the PLO rockets.

That thinking must be rejected!

BTW the Japanese did not sign the conventions on war, they were not under any obligation to obey them. The Allies had signed them and were under obligation to obey them. Germany signed and did not obey.

Perhaps you wish to propose they be amended so they don't apply if your enemy has not signed them or wholesale disregards them? Then you can issue the order to give no quarter.

So you have just got the enemy big cheese in a building. You need to kill him PDQ because he is a stealthy fellow. The problem is the building is right next to a school full of kids. A 125lb shell would be enough to bring the building down and not take out the school. All you have with you is a 15000lb bunker buster bomb. It would level the school. War crime? Welcome to the era of human shields.

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So far, what a load of baloney! What's with all this "war crimes" regarding the USA & UK?

With a few exceptions, WWI was mainly Armies v Armies & Navies v Navies. Post WWI, we see an increased arms race due to the technologies arising from WWI, which brought this: -

2nd Sino-Japanese War 1937-1945

"Although the Japanese quickly captured all key Chinese ports and industrial centres, including cities such as the Chinese capital Nanking and Shanghai, CCP and KMT forces continued resisting. In the brutal conflict, both sides used ‘scorched earth’ tactics. Massacres and atrocities were common. The most infamous came after the fall of Nanking in December 1937, when Japanese troops slaughtered an estimated 300,000 civilians and raped 80,000 women. Many thousands of Chinese were killed in the indiscriminate bombing of cities by the Japanese air force. There were also savage reprisals carried out against Chinese peasants, in retaliation for attacks by partisans who waged a guerrilla war against the invader, ambushing supply columns and attacking isolated units. Warfare of this nature led, by the war’s end, to an estimated 10 to 20 million Chinese civilians deaths."

The Spanish Civil War 1936-1939

"The Condor Legion was a unit composed of volunteers from the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) and from the German Army which served with the Nationalists during the Spanish Civil War of July 1936 to March 1939. The Condor Legion developed methods of terror bombing which were used widely in the Second World War shortly afterwards. The bombing of Guernica was the most infamous operation carried out by the Condor Legion. Hugo Sperrle commanded the unit's aircraft formations and Wilhelm Ritter von Thoma commanded the ground element."

1940, Germany mainly concentrated on UK radar sites, shipping & military airfields. Regardless of whether or not it was a navigational error or not, the turning on London was the turning point in the RAF's commitment to the war - instead of dropping leaflets, they dropped bombs.

For those bringing up Tokyo & Dresden, stop ambushing the USA & UK by solely concentrating on those countries, look to history itself.

we DO KNOW that Axis forces were the BAD boys in WWII!
as we do remember, there were trials after WWII for the atrocities conducted in those war...

but we're talking about "the Good guys" & the Allied forces...that also did some horrific events!
nobody was held accountable for it...why?

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non-profit org. Play4Life in Zagreb, Croatia, EU

but we're talking about "the Good guys" & the Allied forces...that also did some horrific events!
nobody was held accountable for it...why?

Since when do "the good guy's/ Winners" etc put themselfs on trial ? . The Second world war was over 70 years ago . All sides commited "crimes" and some got away with them U.S.A / Operation Paperclip for starters .
The main thing is you learn from history and what's happend and try not to let things repeat themselfs .
Things happen you can't change them but you can learn from them

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

but we're talking about "the Good guys" & the Allied forces...that also did some horrific events!
nobody was held accountable for it...why?

Because they won.

@ Gary, nice sentiments, try debating those with a suicide bomber. If one is that civilised to have rules for war, why the hell is war necessary?

@ Gary, nice sentiments, try debating those with a suicide bomber.

Since when is an individual a country?

If one is that civilised to have rules for war, why the hell is war necessary?

War may again become necessary in Europe if Brexit happens.

BTW who says war is necessary? War is usually the result of a few pig heads who can't get their way attempting to force it upon others.


Rules of war exist between countries. I don't see religions signing on to the rules of war. Perhaps you want an amendment to the rules of war so a country fighting a religion doesn't have to follow them?

OT - You could read the above as countries are civilized, religions are not civilized.

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War may again become necessary in Europe if Brexit happens.

??? where the fu#k did you get that idea from , have you been talking to Nick Griffin ??

Think a war is more likely to happpen if the Americans elect a certain bell end as a president !

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

War may again become necessary in Europe if Brexit happens.

Oh dear. Now I'm getting nervous:)
I don't think that the american people knows what EU is all about.
To perhaps more than 90% it's a trade union.
Many legislations about products crossing borders.
And "Freedom" to work in any EU country.

There is actually an EU army.
It consists of 60,000 men and is called the Eurocorps.
Watch out Britain:)

There is actually an EU army.
It consists of 60,000 men and is called the Eurocorps.
Watch out Britain:)

Ohh i'm sure our Army ,Air force and Navy are quaking in their boots at the EU army , B.T.W are'nt they the part time army that goes home on weekends and public holidays and do 9 to 5 hours ;-)

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Life is what you make of it :-)

When i'm good i'm very good , but when i'm bad i'm shi#eloads better ;-) In't I " buttercups " p.m.s.l at authoritie !!;-)

War may again become necessary in Europe if Brexit happens.

??? where the fu#k did you get that idea from , have you been talking to Nick Griffin ??

It will take a while, but some trade dispute will escalate, some future jackass will impose trade sanctions, and before long the continent will be at war again. It is your long rich history to take up arms against each other over minor petty differences.

There is a thread for that idiot running for president.

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There is actually an EU army.
It consists of 60,000 men and is called the Eurocorps.
Watch out Britain:)

Ohh i'm sure our Army ,Air force and Navy are quaking in their boots at the EU army , B.T.W are'nt they the part time army that goes home on weekends and public holidays and do 9 to 5 hours ;-)

Hehe:)
Reminds me of an indicent now called "ryska påsken" when the Russian air force was excercising nuclear attack at the Swedish Baltic island Gotland in Easter 2013.
The Estonian air force phoned us and asked why we didn't do anything.
"It's holiday".

It is your long rich history to take up arms against each other over minor petty differences.

Hmmm. Please explain.
There are countries here in Europe that haven't taking up arms for more than 200 years.

It is your long rich history to take up arms against each other over minor petty differences.

Hmmm. Please explain.
There are countries here in Europe that haven't taking up arms for more than 200 years.

Well...
If you trade with the NAZI's during WWII (Guess who):
No need to have a war. To defend yourselves, or be conquered.
Is making 'excessive profits' from the NAZI's. IE: American, British and Non-Combatant Country's Capitalist's. Also a War Crime?
If not: Immoral?

Yes. Sweden traded with Nazi Germany.
So what. All countries did that at the time.
Moral is a word that accountants don't know about.

There is however some dark pages in our history.
We let German soldier pass through Sweden on their way to Norway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_German_troops_through_Finland_and_Sweden

However perhaps most of the 'excessive profits' was in Switzerland. A "neutral" country such as Sweden.