heheheheheheehe Ozzie !! ,mate maybe that's why you have said problems not getting out and doing much physical exercise plus smoking the cigarettes and the green stuff probably has not helped :-)

So Doctor Glenn says you need to by a push bike and start riding it around your local area and just maybe it mite help you or you to far gone and now need the oxygen bottle to come with you everywhere .If that's the case mite be time to start paying for that plot of 6" by 2 " bit of land your gona need :-)

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I think electric cars switch one addiction for another, and the cost to the environment is still greater than zero when there's a better alternative. For my part, I'll be keeping an eye on the development of hydrogen powered vehicles with zero emissions, if only they can make them safe enough to drive without exploding on collision.

They are safe enough to drive, the tanks that contain the hydrogen are a lot stronger than you think.

The tanks, which are lined internally with plastic, underwent "extreme" crash and ballistics testing, Hartline said, noting that they were "shot with bullets that actually bounced off."
"They had to move to high-caliber armor-piercing rounds to pierce the tank, and even then it had to be shot in the exact same spot twice with an armor-piercing bullet,"

The fire risk is also small, any leakage of hydrogen from the pipework after the tanks would evaporate into the atmosphere and would be dispersed very fast unlike petrol which forms a puddle underneath the crashed vehicle.

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Kevin

It's called WALKING and it's healthy too

300 miles a night with 10 to 20 ton of parcels balanced on my shoulder.

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Kevin

Maybe on your tiny little island that's a true statement. Maybe even for people that aren't tied down and don't mind living in apartments or condos it would be a good suggestion. Hell, maybe it is a good suggestion for "most" people. Most is still not all, and it certainly isn't me.

I don't think he understands the scale of the USA. Perhaps a bit of perspective.
Population of Australia (entire country) 23.8 million
Population of Los Angeles (metropolitan region) 18.6 million
So one metropolitan region of one of 50 states in the USA is just 20% less than his entire country. Perhaps if he thought of his entire country shoved into one city he would begin to understand the scale of the USA. And why what works for his wide open spaces doesn't work in other places.

I also notice you didn't mention the Chicago weather in riding a bike. I don't think he could even begin to understand a Chicago winter. I see in the winter of 78-79 you got 79 inches of snow. It would be fun to see him ride a bike 148km in those conditions! Of course at your latitude it will be dark at commute time.

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It's called WALKING and it's healthy too


300 miles a night with 10 to 20 ton of parcels balanced on my shoulder

No worry's Ken Google have that sorted with there flying Robots delivery service so you won't have a job soon :-)

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It's called WALKING and it's healthy too


300 miles a night with 10 to 20 ton of parcels balanced on my shoulder

No worry's Ken Google have that sorted with there flying Robots delivery service so you won't have a job soon :-)

If only you knew the volumes of next day deliverys over here. Its not only the home deliverys its also the just in time comercial parts etc.

The bigger danger is the computer driven lorries but I should be retired before they are let loose on the roads.

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Kevin

/rolleyes Obviously in the context, I was referring to the vehicle itself. But fine, ya got me. Yeah, sure, some building has to make the hydrogen. Still considerably less than millions of cars spewing CO into the air, or the pollution made by generating electricity for electric cars which don't have a zero emission rating like hydrogen cars do.

One of the ways of generating hydrogen does use a fair amount of electricity.

It is about time there was some "joined up thinking" about energy.

At times over here there is an excess of electricity generation from mainly wind turbines, this power is wasted by shutting down the turbines and penalty payments made to the turbine owners.

There are other forms of green energy which when they start to come on line which may also suffer from unwanted excesses at certain times.

Hydrogen is one way of storing this excess energy, according to one scientist on a fairly technical radio show you can get about 80% efficency by generating hydrogen and then turning it back into electricity.

Excess or surplus hydrogen can be mixed with natural gas (which can contain hydrogen anyway) up to I think the max was 8% hydrogen, this is ok for normal household use without any modification to gas equipment.

Now we don't want to think just big or just small but a combination of both, also remember we do not need to start hauling vast volumes of hydrogen from one place to another, as long as you have got a reasonable access to electricity you can both make hydrogen and feed in to the grid.

Larger scale plants could be located out of the way, the same place as some of the wind farms may be ideal. Smaller scale ones could be located in out of town garages maybe with the option of their own wind turbines for generating a little extra cash.

generation of both hydrogen and electricity would need to be controlled mainly centrally, and the garages allowed to hold enough hydrogen for vehicle fuel supply.

Inital costs for setting up may be high but how much does it cost to build or decomission a nuclear plant. The big problem may be the fact that the plants would not make any money directly.

The problem with battery electric cars is when people want to charge them, if everone starts using them and starts pluging them in before they go to bed.

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Kevin

From incredibly small beginnings to quickly much greater things?...

(For hydrogen -> electric drive.)


Riversimple Rasa review: Is this hydrogen car the future — or just a gimmick?

Rasa does 300 miles on 1.5 kilos of fuel...


OK, so that's a small start but hey! That's likely ideal for most healthy people.

(OK #2, a special super-sized version is needed for the unhealthy USA proportions!)


Getting back to fuel efficiency... A very interesting summary is given in the comments:

We have used a hydrogen fuel path that we think is most realistic, rather than the one that gives the lowest CO2 figure. This is assuming:
- Natural gas, distributed by pipe, 4,000km
- Steam reformation of natural gas
- Compressed gaseous storage
- Distribution by road
- No CCS (carbon capture and storage)

On this basis, at 200 miles/kg, we have carbon emissions of 39g/km. If we used the figures for electrolysis using wind-generated electricity, this comes down to 4g/km; the reason it is not zero is because of the embedded carbon in the construction of the wind turbines.


That looks to be rather plausible and makes the old fossil fuels internal combustion engine look stupidly wasteful...


This is our only one planet to burn...
Martin

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See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

What about this dated 21 Jun 2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/greenerliving/3345109/Shetlands-hydrogen-technology-pioneers.html

And an update today http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2016/04/20/north-isles-study-could-pave-the-way-for-hydrogen-power-schemes

What about this dated 21 Jun 2008
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/greenerliving/3345109/Shetlands-hydrogen-technology-pioneers.html

And an update today http://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2016/04/20/north-isles-study-could-pave-the-way-for-hydrogen-power-schemes

I had not seen that, It looks like a good start. It shows what can be done, all someone needs to do is to think on a larger area scale.

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Kevin

What worry's me about Hydrogen is this

Volumetric leakage: Leakage of hydrogen from containers and pipelines is expected to be 1.3–2.8 times
as large as gaseous methane leakage and approximately 4 times that of air under the same conditions.
Thus comes the rule: “airproof is not hydrogen-proof.” On the other hand, any released hydrogen has the
potential to disperse rapidly by fast diffusion, turbulent convection, and buoyancy, thus considerably
limiting its presence in the hazardous zone (Zuettel et al., 2008)

http://www.aidic.it/lp2013/webpapers/36rigas.pdf

This explains the Hazards of hydrogen

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I think electric cars switch one addiction for another, and the cost to the environment is still greater than zero when there's a better alternative. For my part, I'll be keeping an eye on the development of hydrogen powered vehicles with zero emissions, if only they can make them safe enough to drive without exploding on collision.

Except they don't have zero emissions. Somewhere emissions happen from the power needed to convert water into its component elements. If that is building solar cells, coal fired power plants, or furnaces to build wind turbine blades, there are emissions.

/rolleyes Obviously in the context, I was referring to the vehicle itself. But fine, ya got me. Yeah, sure, some building has to make the hydrogen. Still considerably less than millions of cars spewing CO into the air, or the pollution made by generating electricity for electric cars which don't have a zero emission rating like hydrogen cars do.

I haven't gotten to the filthy green house gas that the hydrogen car emits. That horrible dihydrogen monoxide is such a high green house gas because of it special spectral properties that the warmists are even afraid to put a number to it. It doesn't break down in the environment so once released it is a forever issue.

Yes, it is water, but the "make it so" crowd is proposing to convert on an industrial scale water from oceans where in its liquid form it acts as a temperature sink into its gaseous form where it acts as a strong warming agent. Perhaps before it is made so someone should calculate the net effect on the environment.

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I haven't gotten to the filthy green house gas that the hydrogen car emits. That horrible dihydrogen monoxide is such a high green house gas because of it special spectral properties that the warmists are even afraid to put a number to it. It doesn't break down in the environment so once released it is a forever issue.

Yes, it is water, but the "make it so" crowd is proposing to convert on an industrial scale water from oceans where in its liquid form it acts as a temperature sink into its gaseous form where it acts as a strong warming agent. Perhaps before it is made so someone should calculate the net effect on the environment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax

HTH

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Kevin

I haven't gotten to the filthy green house gas that the hydrogen car emits.

Umm... that would be none. Zero. Zilch.

That horrible dihydrogen monoxide is such a high green house gas because of it special spectral properties that the warmists are even afraid to put a number to it. It doesn't break down in the environment so once released it is a forever issue.

It doesn't break down because it is water. It doesn't need to break down, and last I checked, water isn't harmful to our environment.

Yes, it is water, but the "make it so" crowd is proposing to convert on an industrial scale water from oceans where in its liquid form it acts as a temperature sink into its gaseous form where it acts as a strong warming agent. Perhaps before it is made so someone should calculate the net effect on the environment.

Water in it's gaseous form is a strong warming agent? No one is proposing using the gaseous form of water. They are proposing we separate the hydrogen molecules from the oxygen molecules so the hydrogen can be used as fuel. When you separate the two, you get the fuel for the car and more oxygen in the air. Pretty sure this is 100% completely harmless to the environment unless we suddenly start breathing something else.

It's 150 years from now and man has used Hydrogen for all this time .

The hydrogen levels in the atmosphere increase to (i'll take a guess here ) 6%

as it does not break down and stays in the atmosphere and builds up .

Could it at this point ignite and burn the atmosphere leaving no oxygen for us to breathe ??

Man's rein on Earth is suposed to end when we burn up !!!!

I urge caution with Hydrogen we could be about to make a very bad mistake if we start to use it on a industrial level

Volumetric leakage: Leakage of hydrogen from containers and pipelines is expected to be 1.3–2.8 times
as large as gaseous methane leakage and approximately 4 times that of air under the same conditions.

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It's 150 years from now and man has used Hydrogen for all this time .
The hydrogen levels in the atmosphere increase to (i'll take a guess here ) 6%
as it does not break down and stays in the atmosphere and builds up .
Could it at this point ignite and burn the atmosphere leaving no oxygen for us to breathe ??
Man's rein on Earth is suposed to end when we burn up !!!!
I urge caution with Hydrogen we could be about to make a very bad mistake if we start to use it on a industrial level

It is required that the hydrogen is twice that of the oxygen gas in a volume of explosive gas to form an ignition.
There will never be so much hydrogen in the atmosphere that an explosion will happen.
Maybe man made hydrogen will burn and make some of the atmospherical oxygen turn into water but given the wast amount of oxygen that is in the atmosphere it's not a problem.

I haven't gotten to the filthy green house gas that the hydrogen car emits.

Umm... that would be none. Zero. Zilch.

That horrible dihydrogen monoxide is such a high green house gas because of it special spectral properties that the warmists are even afraid to put a number to it. It doesn't break down in the environment so once released it is a forever issue.

It doesn't break down because it is water. It doesn't need to break down, and last I checked, water isn't harmful to our environment.

Yes, it is water, but the "make it so" crowd is proposing to convert on an industrial scale water from oceans where in its liquid form it acts as a temperature sink into its gaseous form where it acts as a strong warming agent. Perhaps before it is made so someone should calculate the net effect on the environment.

Water in it's gaseous form is a strong warming agent? No one is proposing using the gaseous form of water. They are proposing we separate the hydrogen molecules from the oxygen molecules so the hydrogen can be used as fuel. When you separate the two, you get the fuel for the car and more oxygen in the air. Pretty sure this is 100% completely harmless to the environment unless we suddenly start breathing something else.

My, you forgot the car burns the hydrogen with oxygen from the air and gives water vapor as exhaust. When people don't know chemistry and are setting global policy ...........

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When people don't know chemistry and are setting global policy ...........

And it's highschool chemistry...

I understand when you burn hydrogen it turn into water but that's not what would cause a problem it's the amount of leakage that I think could cause a problem unburnt hydrogen

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When people don't know chemistry and are setting global policy ...........

And it's highschool chemistry...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_absorption_by_water#Atmospheric%20effects

Water vapor is a greenhouse gas in the Earth's atmosphere, responsible for 70% of the known absorption of incoming sunlight, particularly in the infrared region, and about 60% of the atmospheric absorption of thermal radiation by the Earth known as the greenhouse effect.

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/artificial-weather-revealed-post-9-11-flight-groundings

In the three days that followed the 9/11 attacks, when all commercial flights above the continental US were suddenly suspended, a veil was lifted on the profound, though until that point unconfirmed, effects that aviation-associated artificial clouds are having on our planetary environment.
...
First, it is important to point out that the observed post-9/11 elevation in temperature is not one-dimensional. While clouds, including aviation-associated contrails may lower temperature by reflecting solar radiation off the planet in what is known as the "albedo" effect, they may also raise temperature by blanketing trapped heat preventing its nighttime radiative dissipation.

Again, some propose the industrial scale release of water vapor, a GHG accounting for 60% of global warming, by waving their hands because it isn't CO2! This after experimental proof of water's ability to change global temperature.

Don't propose a fix that is worse than the disease!

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