California High Speed Rail

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Message 1741797 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 16:47:59 UTC
Last modified: 13 Nov 2015, 16:53:46 UTC

Water or Railroad?
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/water-691799-initiative-california.html
SACRAMENTO – Two state lawmakers submitted language Thursday for a ballot initiative that would ask California voters to redirect about $8 billion in bond money from the state’s high-speed rail project to build water storage.

Board of Equalization member George Runner and Sen. Bob Huff of San Dimas, the former Senate minority leader, said they filed language for the initiative with the Attorney General’s Office.

The ballot proposal would also authorize shifting $2.7 billion in unspent water bond money to water storage construction and amend the state constitution to give drinking water and irrigation priority from California’s limited water supply.

“This initiative secures our water future by building long-overdue expansions of existing facilities and new projects to store, deliver and recycle water for our families, farms and businesses,” Huff said in a statement.

The California High-Speed Rail Authority did not respond to a request for comment Thursday.

Voters in 2008 approved selling nearly $10 billion in bonds for the project to link Northern and Southern California by high-speed trains, but many have now soured on it and have questioned whether it will cost the $68 billion that has been projected. Project leaders have faced criticism for its planned route, engineering proposals and insufficient federal funding dedicated to it.

<ed>For the politics on CHSR, non-political, e.g. engineering, can be in the train thread in the cafe.
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Message 1741816 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 18:06:16 UTC - in response to Message 1741797.  

Water or Railroad?
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/water-691799-initiative-california.html
SACRAMENTO – Two state lawmakers submitted language Thursday for a ballot initiative that would ask California voters to redirect about $8 billion in bond money from the state’s high-speed rail project to build water storage.

Board of Equalization member George Runner and Sen. Bob Huff of San Dimas, the former Senate minority leader, said they filed language for the initiative with the Attorney General’s Office.

The ballot proposal would also authorize shifting $2.7 billion in unspent water bond money to water storage construction and amend the state constitution to give drinking water and irrigation priority from California’s limited water supply.

“This initiative secures our water future by building long-overdue expansions of existing facilities and new projects to store, deliver and recycle water for our families, farms and businesses,” Huff said in a statement.

The California High-Speed Rail Authority did not respond to a request for comment Thursday.

Voters in 2008 approved selling nearly $10 billion in bonds for the project to link Northern and Southern California by high-speed trains, but many have now soured on it and have questioned whether it will cost the $68 billion that has been projected. Project leaders have faced criticism for its planned route, engineering proposals and insufficient federal funding dedicated to it.

<ed>For the politics on CHSR, non-political, e.g. engineering, can be in the train thread in the cafe.


This one is somewhat of a no-brainer. The politics of the situation is relatively clear. WATER.

Much of California is semi-arid to arid.

As long as a great many people are living in the arid regions of California, they will need WATER to survive.

As long as the agricultural regions of California are being used to feed not only the people of California, but indeed much of the USA and to some extent the World, they will need WATER.

Without the WATER, people will not be able to live in the arid, southern regions of California, at least not in any great number. Therefore, they will not need the high-speed rail.

Solve the WATER problem first, THEN think about trains. Anything else is economic and political insanity. But then, this IS California we are discussing, so who knows what they will decide to do.
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Message 1741823 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 18:17:31 UTC

I'm opposed, this is a Republican attack on California, the Water bond already has $2.5 Billion for digging dry holes(Dam Construction), without any rain, since the state is still in a drought, would be a waste of money. The water bond is $7.0 Billion total, $1.0 Billion has already been appropriated(spending) by the State Legislature and paid for by the State Treasury.

Also the state does need HSR, most people in this state are for HSR, everytime someone ran on killing HSR, they were defeated in the election.
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Message 1741828 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 18:35:53 UTC

Oh and polls rely on landlines still, most of what you see on polls that tilt against HSR/HST are from Old people and Republicans, cell phones don't get polled, so the polls are skewed and are way out of wack.
(reason foundation(KOCH owned) = KOCH = Big Oil = Dirty Money)

The majority of people in the state of California are a combination of Democrats and Independents(Indies vote Democratic) vs a minority population of Republicans, that is in decline.
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Profile MOMMY: He is MAKING ME Read His Posts Thoughts and Prayers. GOoD Thoughts and GOoD Prayers. HATERWORLD Vs THOUGHTs and PRAYERs World. It Is a BATTLE ROYALE. Nobody LOVEs Me. Everybody HATEs Me. Why Don't I Go Eat Worms. Tasty Treats are Wormy Meat. Yes
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Message 1741839 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 19:32:40 UTC

Water Water Water Water Water.

Frakk A Rail Project.

Water Is Life.

This Very Old, COKE Drinkin' Whack Republican Votin' mO fO says WATER.

WATER.

Got 'it', No? Then Get Some.

Rail? ROTFLMAO.

Stay Thirsty?

Nope.

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!
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Message 1741855 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 20:55:13 UTC - in response to Message 1741816.  

But then, this IS California we are discussing, so who knows what they will decide to do.
As the unthinking blasts that followed yours so succinctly point out.

California is in for an El Niño winter. But, California doesn't have the dams to store the rain. It will mostly run off into the Pacific ocean. It won't be held in spreading basins to replenish the underground aquifer to make those dry holes wet again. It won't be kept in dams for use in the summer and fall. It will be wasted. Unfortunately, this won't even be on the ballot before all that waste happens.

You are right Major, if the question is Water or Rail, there isn't a question.
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Message 1741858 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 21:21:01 UTC - in response to Message 1741855.  

You are right Major, if the question is Water or Rail, there isn't a question.

If the state required more frugal water practices such as Israel has there would not be a shortage. The waste that senior water rights rewards should be criminal.
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Message 1741859 - Posted: 13 Nov 2015, 21:24:31 UTC
Last modified: 13 Nov 2015, 21:25:02 UTC

Myth: “Far from protecting the environment, most rail transit lines use more energy per passenger mile, and many generate more greenhouse gases, than the average passenger automobile.” (Randal O’Toole, Cato Institute, April 2008)

Fact: Amtrak is 31.2% more efficient than automobiles, 33.5 % more efficient than personal trucks, and 13.8% more efficient than airplanes (on a Btu per passenger mile basis). And the U.S. saves 4.2 billion gallons of oil each year through the use of public transportation. To get a more complete picture of the environmental impact of rail transit of all forms, one must take into account the extent to which rail serves as a catalyst for energy-efficient, pedestrian-friendly real estate development and thus also energy-efficient buildings.

[Transportation Energy Data Book: Edition 30—2011. Oak Ridge National Laboratory.]; [Public Transportation Fact Book—2011. American Public Transportation Association]

http://narprail.org/our-issues/myths-and-facts/

More GHG's makes less rain available or in the case of droughts or rain, more extreme weather, HSR uses less energy than autos, the GOP was all for HSR, then the President said He was for HSR and suddenly the GOP went all Obstructionist and was against HSR and has been ever since.

Freeways cost more per mile than HSR(Fwys take more land, more materials and more WATER) and can't handle the passenger volume, unlike HSR which has proven it can for over 50 years.



Note: The GOP already tried to put a bill in motion to transfer $8 Billion of the HSR bonds to highways in the CA State Legislature, that was rejected, but then the GOP votes NO on everything they don't like, it's in the record too.
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Message 1741889 - Posted: 14 Nov 2015, 0:04:08 UTC - in response to Message 1741858.  
Last modified: 14 Nov 2015, 0:05:00 UTC

You are right Major, if the question is Water or Rail, there isn't a question.

If the state required more frugal water practices such as Israel has there would not be a shortage.

If they did that the population would be 1/2 of what it is and we would not export farm crops to the rest of the USA or other countries. I thought Australia was the leader in water?
The waste that senior water rights rewards should be criminal.

The issue there is the treaties that said X gallons of water, not Y percent of water in the Dry Gulch Desert River. That crap happened a long long time ago and stare dices isn't going to allow it to be changed. The last time there was a water war in California dynamite was used more than once.

Oh, I'm not disagreeing that the system needs to be changed, just it may be very hard to get some people to accept cuts to what they see as their property. Or to change to a system that treats immigrants the same as long time residents.
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Message 1741914 - Posted: 14 Nov 2015, 1:42:43 UTC - in response to Message 1741889.  
Last modified: 14 Nov 2015, 1:45:29 UTC

If they did that the population would be 1/2 of what it is and we would not export farm crops to the rest of the USA or other countries.
Would reducing California's population be a bad thing? As for food production Israel is a major exporter of food to Europe. I recently heard an interview with a major water guru from Israel who stated that if the southwest used common sense concerning conservation there was enough water for all, no need for depopulation.
Stare decisis = what worked in the past is what we will do forever even if it no longer works.
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Message 1741916 - Posted: 14 Nov 2015, 2:04:49 UTC - in response to Message 1741914.  

If they did that the population would be 1/2 of what it is and we would not export farm crops to the rest of the USA or other countries.
Would reducing California's population be a bad thing? As for food production Israel is a major exporter of food to Europe. I recently heard an interview with a major water guru from Israel who stated that if the southwest used common sense concerning conservation there was enough water for all, no need for depopulation.
Stare decisis = what worked in the past is what we will do forever even if it no longer works.

Reducing California's population?

Huh?

How?

People like living here, moving is expensive and I sure don't see any Federal money coming from a spendthrift GOP, that likes the military, yet screams for the IRS and other Federal agencies to be shut down permanently... Totally insane and unacceptable. If I wanted and could move, I've had estimates of of about $2300 and that was to move 55 miles and that does not include any utility deposits or building permits for My mobile home, nor the cost of the land or of the tear down, moving and setup of My mobile home, which I own outright(no mortgage)... Moving a mobile home is not cheap and usually requires cash, something I don't have, yet(or ever maybe), nor the $2,000 to $30,000 for the 7500sqft of land...
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Message 1741989 - Posted: 14 Nov 2015, 7:52:32 UTC - in response to Message 1741916.  

Reducing California's population?

Huh?

How?

They never would have been allowed to build an abode in the first place. No water hookup, no electricity, no phone/cable/internet, no sewer, no road. Zoning code. Still could work, no turning on the water for a new customer, so you can sell your house, but the new owner won't have municipal water or be given an occupancy permit.
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Message 1741991 - Posted: 14 Nov 2015, 7:57:58 UTC - in response to Message 1741989.  
Last modified: 14 Nov 2015, 8:02:31 UTC

Reducing California's population?

Huh?

How?

They never would have been allowed to build an abode in the first place. No water hookup, no electricity, no phone/cable/internet, no sewer, no road. Zoning code. Still could work, no turning on the water for a new customer, so you can sell your house, but the new owner won't have municipal water or be given an occupancy permit.

That would never happen, not in this state.

So I could sell, but I could not buy a replacement home in California, the state of My birth? Where My family is buried at?

I'd sue... No growth is bs. I'm a disabled person, I get a check from the SSA, such a suggestion is monstrous and repugnant.
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Message 1742004 - Posted: 14 Nov 2015, 11:09:34 UTC

It's a no brainer the WATER FIRST .

However I would have thought that America would have built a High Speed Railway from New York to California by now you do have enough people not some small scale thing in just one state .

Oh I forget can't use government money and governments should not own company's

Japan China France U.K I even I think Germany has one mmmmm were talking of one but not enough people so what's America's excuse for not having one ??

Ideology ??

Maybe it's time to rethink that a little !! Maybe take a lesson out of Frances book seeing as have been so close to them and there systems of Governace
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Message 1742038 - Posted: 14 Nov 2015, 14:49:11 UTC - in response to Message 1742004.  

We need both, there is $7 Billion devoted to water already, another bond for water could be authorized by the legislature, so taking $8 Billion from HSR is an attempt by opponents who want HSR killed, it's not about WATER, it's a manufactured crisis.

Problem is HSR won't die, without the Prop1a bonds HSR would then be freed from Prop1a and the CHSRA won't have any worries about this or that, like the time to go from LA to SF.

The Democratic Party in CA is for HSR, HSR being built from scratch, as any NEW Freeway would be at this point, is expensive, sure more Fwys could be built, but they can't handle the traffic load(this has been proven) or the expected population increase that US Census data predicts(38 Million to either 50 or 60 Million in California).

Freeways gobble up more land, more construction materials, more MONEY and MORE WATER, than HSR ever will.

Concrete needs water, HSR uses very little water, Ties are premade and can be made out of creosote soaked wood, plastic or concrete.

Concrete ties are used by railroads across the World and in the US too, though not nearly as much as the creosote soaked wooden ties, ties hold the rails together, with spikes or bolts and tie plates on top of the ties. Some countries or railroads use bolts instead of spikes.

Whereas Freeways use a LOT of Water and a lot of Concrete, not to mention 3 to 4 times as much land.

Besides I think that at least half of the bonds have been spent on matching to 2.6-3.2 Billion in Federal Dollars, like what goes into everyones roads, yeah Federal money helps to partly pave your roads as a percentage of funds that go into paving projects, some is state money and some is local.
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Message 1742932 - Posted: 18 Nov 2015, 0:03:17 UTC - in response to Message 1742004.  

It's a no brainer the WATER FIRST .

However I would have thought that America would have built a High Speed Railway from New York to California by now you do have enough people not some small scale thing in just one state .

Oh I forget can't use government money and governments should not own company's

Japan China France U.K I even I think Germany has one mmmmm were talking of one but not enough people so what's America's excuse for not having one ??

Ideology ??

Maybe it's time to rethink that a little !! Maybe take a lesson out of Frances book seeing as have been so close to them and there systems of Governance.

Going from New York to California is not practical at this time, the distance is too great.

HSR works over shorter distances, like less than 550 miles.

The idea that there is not enough population for HSR is a MYTH.

http://highspeedrailworks.org/overview-2/myths-facts/
Claim: Unlike Europe and Asia, the U.S. does not have the population density to support high-speed rail.

Fact: The U.S. population is densely clustered in the Northeast, Midwest, Southeast, and California – precisely the areas where high-speed rail projects are advancing.

The Paris-Lyon high-speed rail line serves a combined population of 11.7 million people 255 miles apart. The population density along the Chicago-Detroit corridor closely resembles this, serving 14.5 million people 304 miles apart.

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Message 1743053 - Posted: 18 Nov 2015, 6:44:03 UTC
Last modified: 18 Nov 2015, 6:44:24 UTC

We've been wanting a HSR link from Brisbane through Sydney, Canberra and onto Melbourne for a few decades now, but the airline companies are the main 1's blocking it as it will take a lot off business of them (it would cut a lot of air congestion here as well as greenhouse gases). :-(

Cheers.
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Message 1743080 - Posted: 18 Nov 2015, 9:43:14 UTC

China has one high speed train that is about half the distance of the US coast - coast distance.

China opens world's longest high-speed railway line

It used to take the best part of 24 hours to travel by train from Beijing to the southern boomtown of Guangzhou. But as of Wednesday, when the world's longest high-speed rail line opened for business, the 1,428-mile journey has been cut to a mere eight hours.
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Message 1743090 - Posted: 18 Nov 2015, 11:08:43 UTC

Ok, but what is the flight time and costs for comparison. It's all horses for courses.

The thing is Chris that very few would be expected to do the whole distance (train buffs excepted), but it travels through 5 different provinces and 35 cities so from 1 to the next it would very likely have very high occupation levels between each stop given the population there (the same as would happen here down the east coast here, just no where near their numbers). ;-)

Cheers.
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Message 1743108 - Posted: 18 Nov 2015, 14:02:10 UTC - in response to Message 1743089.  

Ok, but what is the flight time and costs for comparison. It's all horses for courses.

Flight times are only relevant when you factor in all the delays, like journey time to airport, how long do you have to report before flight time, time waitng for baggage and the time from airport to destination city. Plus any delays if the journey consists of two or more flight or landings.
You can save ~15% by going via Chicago from San Francisco to New York at the expense of 2 or more hours travel time.

Trains tend to go from city centre to city centre, and if they do stop at intervening cities it is only for a few minutes.
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