Exactly! So to paraphrase a famous quote: -

"never in the field of finance, has so much been owed to so many by so few"

Wot? you joking man? all those lovely lobbyist/accountancy/lawyer jobs disappearing...

...are you crazy?

Global view on HSBC tax scandal

Hero or villain?

HSBC sparks row

When does avoidance become evasion?

BBC having a field day today...

The point is that tax avoidance is morally wrong, and tax evasion is legally wrong. But when you are talking millions of pounds many won't care or will take the risks. Modern banks are financial advisors to their customers not just places to deposit cash. Until they make tax avoidance illegal too, nothing will change.

Why is tax avoidance morally (or indeed any other kind of) wrong? After all, one is just obeying the law...

The moral wrong here, if there is one, is in the law itself, not in people obeying it.

'Tax avoidance' is using tax deductions, tax exemptions, tax credits, and the tax rate bracket structure to minimize one's tax bill.

I will use USA terms, I am sure that other nations have similar provisions but maybe under different names.

On your income tax, do you take the personal exemptions or standard or itemized deductions? The law does not require you to do so. You do it (as the law allows you to do) to reduce your tax bill. Tax Avoidance!!

On your income tax, do you take any tax credits? Things like child care tax credits or earned income tax credits? The law does not require you to do so. You do so (as the law allows you to do) to reduce your tax bill. Tax Avoidance!!

On your sales taxes, do you take a tax exempt status? The law does not require you to do so. You do it (as the law allows you to do so) to reduce your tax bill. Tax Avoidance!!

On your property taxes, do you take a 'homestead exemption'? The law does not require you to do so. You do so (as the law allows you to do) to reduce your tax bill. Tax Avoidance!!

Do you benefit from a lower than maximum tax rate under the so-called progressive income tax? The law does not require you to do so. You do so (as the law allows you to do) to reduce your tax bill. Tax Avoidance!!

Do you benefit personally from *ANY* Tax Exemptions, Tax Deductions, Tax Credits, or 'Progressive' Tax Rates??

They are a choice you take to reduce your tax bill, *avoiding* paying any more taxes than you have to.

If *YOU* are not willing to totally forgo for yourself ALL of these tax avoidance schemes, then you have no right to get all bu**hurt when someone else takes advantage of the SAME DANG THING you are.

Stop it yourself, or STFU about it.

You want to STOP Tax Avoidance? There is one, and only one, way to do so.

A Flat Tax on ALL income (to stop people gaming on Tax Rates) with NO exemptions, deductions or credits (to stop people from sheltering income from taxes).

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right.
Equally, just because something is illegal doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

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Life on earth is the global equivalent of not storing things in the fridge.

Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's right.
Equally, just because something is illegal doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong.

Very very true, Simon, but as I said:

The moral wrong here, if there is one, is in the law itself, not in people obeying it.

Just because something is legal, does not mean you *must* do it, just that if you do decide to do it that it is not a crime.

If I park my money in your offshore bank/brokerage, will you promise to never tell the tax authorities in my home country?

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Explanations of the tax rate is not needed, what is, is an answer to the problem.

Explanations of the tax rate is not needed, what is, is an answer to the problem.

A single worldwide universal flat tax.

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Nice idea, but you know what will happen of course...

Nice idea, but you know what will happen of course...

Why yes, the UN will be in charge of the EU! Pigs will fly.

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Nice idea, but you know what will happen of course...

Why yes, the UN will be in charge of the EU! Pigs will fly.

Well let us know when you see them fly :-)

Nice idea, but you know what will happen of course...

Why yes, the UN will be in charge of the EU! Pigs will fly.

Well let us know when you see them fly :-)

Just as soon as there is a solution to the problem you will see them yourself.

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The point is that tax avoidance is morally wrong, and tax evasion is legally wrong. But when you are talking millions of pounds many won't care or will take the risks. Modern banks are financial advisors to their customers not just places to deposit cash. Until they make tax avoidance illegal too, nothing will change.

It aren't the banks that are advising on how to best optimize the tax rate for their customers. Mostly because it would be advising customers to park their money at another bank in another country. No, you have to thank accountant firms for this, and the fact that the world is unwilling to tackle this issue.

Also, flat taxes don't help. They just mean that millionaires pay the same tax rate as their secretaries. There will be only one group benefiting from that, and thats the one percent.

That aside, a flat tax doesn't tackle the tax routes these companies have set up. Apple or Starbucks doesn't pay tax in the US because they technically make no profit that can be taxed. Technically they only manage to break even, because they are 'buying' supplies from themselves at such a price that there is no profit left. Instead, all that money goes to wherever they registered themselves that has a much better tax rate than the US.

A flat tax does not tackle such basic problems, nor will it inspire corporations to start paying their taxes because they suddenly think its fair. As long as there is a country out there with a lower tax burden, thats where these corporations will want to go to. So the only thing you can do to keep them on board is by competing with tax rates, which is just a race to the bottom.

Amen

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The problem is that tax is not the only thing that affect wealth.

How much do the wealthy save by not having mortgages, being able to pay cash for their cars, not using loans or credit cards for expensive household items or buying things in bulk.

Everyone treated Equally Under Law.

Not

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There will be only one group benefiting from that, and thats the one percent.

Ah, another advocate of a "more fair" than "fair" system. Take some time to find a class where they discuss "more fair" and George Orwell.

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Take some time to find a class where they discuss "more fair" and George Orwell.

Gary you are changing the topic, as for what is fair all societies have members less productive than others yet most find ways to help them out, our current system does a very poor job of that. To quote Nic Hanauer, his greatest fear is the pitch forks. As he states the greatest fear the 1% should have is they get too far removed from the bottom or the pitch forks will follow.

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