So who are these 'lucky' people doing 'nothing'?

I didn't say they were lucky, I said YOU were lucky to live in a country that has no one living on benefits and refusing to work.

---

So who are these 'lucky' people doing 'nothing'?

I didn't say they were lucky, I said YOU were lucky to live in a country that has no one living on benefits and refusing to work.

Oh dear.
My sister lives in Britain and have done so for more than 30 years!
Both Sweden and Britain have this 'problem'.

Please give some examples of these parasites.

And dont forget we are part of the EU.
We have some newcomers from Romanie just like Britain.
In London one politician came up with the brilliant idea to put spikes on the pavemenents to prevent beggers to sit there.!

Here one immigrant from middle east kicked a fotball right in the face of a Romanian girl!
One Swede hit one Romanian with lots of beer cans on his head!

Why? Who is all in this thread? The lucky ones?

As we all perhaps know, the amount of jobs available for people is steadily and rapidly decreasing. Thanks to massive innovations in the field of robotics and artificial intelligence, people are losing their jobs because computers and robots can do it better and cheaper.

Of course we're going to have to change the way things are done in the future. It can be done intelligently (as was posed to us at the beginning of the thread) or it will be achieved through revolution by a generation who may already have been born - our little ones taking their first steps as I type perhaps :) I would definitely prefer the former, but if we don't start looking at alternatives soon, their future may be very bleak indeed, and through no fault of their own.

If machines are how a company produces it's products - unless machines then start buying and consuming those products (3D printers could be just such one - watch out folks :) seriously looking at something that has the potential to uninvent a large number of employment opportunities for us non-metallic soft chassid lot :)) businesses won't last long at all.

Ensuring a "living wage" is received by the community surrounding their premises - will ensure they have a business at all... (and make them affordable to insure :)) And of course people will work. Some will work for money in those areas where machines haven't replaced us yet... others will work for nothing, improving their communities, as people do now. Take away the fear of where your next crust of bread is going to come from and the grinding need to compete against one another for fewer and fewer jobs - we may even become a bit nicer to one other.

And if business owners resent that - they can always divest themselves of their machines like they divested themselves of their workers once upon a time.

Better to plan for what's needed I think :) It's in no one's best interests to have malnourished, disease-ridden unfortunates or others driven to the desperation that is drug addiction, and/or an angry resentful mob of youngsters surrounding a fortunate few whilst they pour money into technology - to protect the goods they can't sell from being stolen - whilst they preside over businesses that are going absolutely nowhere fast.

Quite what it would mean for the planet's population figures I don't know... I'll go away and have a think on that one... :)

There are 3 factors of production, land, labor and capital. As capital replaces labor the trend is not good for labor. I don't foresee that those who control the capital sharing with labor so the inevitable result will be revolution. All the talk in this thread about the lazy parasites totally endorses my view point. The capitalists are willing to forgo their long term survival for short and intermedite profits. I watch in amazement.

---

Do you think this would work?

No it does not work. Where is the money going to come from ?

Think again:)
Where does money comes from?
Even poor people pays taxes.
Why?

Not in Amerika! There they get earned income credit!

?
But poor people consumes a LOT.
In fact a sort of a reverse Robin Hood tax!
It is called Value Added Tax. VAT MOMS.

VAT? Is that something you cook in? So sorry to inform you that tax is not levied by the US federal government.

If you mean consumption taxes, why the Federal government does have a few on sin items. They do levy a tax on tobacco and booze. Are you implying that poor people buy more tobacco and booze that it makes up a large part of the tax revenue?

Of course the Federal government does collect a nasty tax called inflation. Not sure just how regressive it is, but it wipes out more poor than rich.

The entire US tax system can't be broken down into a European concept. Beside the Federal tax, there are 50 different states that have tax systems. Everything from a check to all residents, Alaska, to massive taxes like California. No commonality at all. Then under the state is the special district. They mostly are funded by property tax and/or user fees. Then you have county governments. Property tax, business license taxes and/or transfers from state coffers. Then you have cities. Property taxes, permit fees, business taxes, user fees, state coffers, and utility taxes. Mind you there are a couple of those local governments that impose an income tax as well. It is a mixed up mess, so much so that averages become useless.

---

Venus Project Sounds Good To Me

Very briefly, The Venus Project is an organization that proposes a feasible plan of action for social change, a holistic global socio-economic system called a Resource Based Economy; that works toward a peaceful and sustainable global civilization. It outlines an alternative to strive toward where human rights are not only paper proclamations but also a way of life.

The Venus Project presents an alternative vision for a sustainable world civilization unlike any political, economic or social system that has gone before. It envisions a time in the near future when money, politics, self and national-interest have been phased out. Although this vision may seem idealistic, it is based upon years of study and experimental research. It spans the gamut from education, transportation, clean sources of energy to total city systems.

Many people believe what is needed is a higher sense of ethical standards and the enactment of international laws and treaties to assure a sustainable global society. Even if the most ethical people in the world were elected to political office, without sufficient resources we would still have many of the same problems we have today. As long as a few nations control most of the world's resources and profit is the bottom line, the same cycle of events will prevail.

As global challenges and scientific information proliferate, nations and people face common threats that transcend national boundaries. Overpopulation, energy shortages, global warming, environmental pollution, water scarcity, economic catastrophe, the spread of uncontrollable disease, and the technological displacement of people by machines threaten each of us. Although many people are dedicated to alleviating those conditions, our social and environmental problems will remain insurmountable as long as a few powerful nations and financial interests maintain control of and consume most of the world's resources and the monetary system prevails.

If we really wish to put an end to our ongoing international and social problems, we must declare Earth and all of its resources the common heritage of all of the world's people.

Earth is abundant and has plentiful resources. Our practice of rationing resources through monetary control is no longer relevant and is counter-productive to our survival. Today we have highly advanced technologies, but our social and economic system has not kept up with our technological capabilities.

We could easily create a world of abundance for all, free of servitude and debt based on the carrying capacity of Earth resources. With the intelligent and humane application of science and technology, the people of the earth can guide and shape the future together while protecting the environment. We don't have enough money to accomplish these ends but we do have more than enough resources.

---

May we All have a METAMORPHOSIS. REASON. GOoD JUDGEMENT and LOVE and ORDER!!!!!

Dull who was once a worm, that is the most cogent post you have ever done.

---

Every foreigner who comes to Belgium gets a basic income, every Belgian who's too lazy to work, gets a basic income, every Belgian, who isn't able to work due to mental or physical health issues, gets a basic income. People aren't motivated anymore to work here. It's so much easier to be paid to do exactly nothing and enjoy your extralegal benefits that working people can only dream of (and have to pay for) Your idea doesn't sound so bad Michiel but I don't think it's doable... People just wouldn't settle for it. The grass is always greener on the other side side but it would also be a problem if the grass were grey everywhere...

---

rOZZ
Music
Pictures

Dull who was once a worm, that is the most cogent post you have ever done.

Yes, he should copy & paste more often. :-D

Cheers.

After quickly looking at the posts of this one i thought ut oh listen to the screams from the Americans , "it's communism ", "it socialism" "it wont work blah blah blah

but 1 fellow here has surprised me Gooba Gaba good post mate

---

Money comes from Consumption.

You have it exactly backwards mi amigo:

Money (CAPITAL) comes from PRODUCTION. The US and China and all Produced themselves to a higher standard of living.

Money comes from Consumption.

You have it exactly backwards mi amigo:

Money (CAPITAL) comes from PRODUCTION. The US and China and all Produced themselves to a higher standard of living.

Yeah no, thats not how it works. You need capital before you can start producing. Unless you know some magic spell that pulls factories, machinery and labor out of nothing.

The thing is, its a cycle. Think back to your ec101 class.

Money comes from Consumption.

You have it exactly backwards mi amigo:
Money (CAPITAL) comes from PRODUCTION. The US and China and all Produced themselves to a higher standard of living.

What is done with 'The Production', if their is no Consumption?

A good thing is that the prizes goes down:)
Demand and supply.
Oops salaries as well.

3D printers can only produce parts in plastic or sprayed metal. They can't drop forge for strength, or harden and temper with heat treatment. Mechanisation has been going on since the Luddites in the early 17C, from plugboard capstans, to CNC milling machines, to modern car production lines. Machines still need machine minders.

Well thats changing. 3d printers are just in their early stages of what I believe will be nothing but a revolution in the field of home production. Now they 'print' soon they will assemble. Up until we are dealing with nano assemblies that can produce pretty much anything thanks to nano machines.

Also, the machine minders are going to become obsolete soon. Machines that can self diagnose and self regulate, that can essentially fix themselves. Sure, we are not there yet, but give it 20-30 years and they will be able to do just that. There will always be some human overseeing the whole operation, sure, but the fact remains that there will be less humans needed, so there will be less humans able to get a job.

And that is the problem here. Its not that jobs are completely disappearing, the problem is that in a decade, maybe two decades, a significant part of the population simply wont be able to get a job, because there arent any jobs for them to do. And our current way of dealing with unemployment wont work then.

And that is the problem here. Its not that jobs are completely disappearing, the problem is that in a decade, maybe two decades, a significant part of the population simply wont be able to get a job, because there arent any jobs for them to do. And our current way of dealing with unemployment wont work then.

Well said.
History tells us that uprising and wars are inevitable under these conditions.

It's not all doom and gloom Annie!

Someone has to design, manufacture, and produce these machines. Someone has to transport them from where they are made to where they are used. Someone has to install and maintain them, service them, upgrade them, oil them, etc etc. Then these machines need to be fed with raw materials to produce these goods, someone has to produce these materials and transport them to the factory. Then the finished parts/products need to be packed, transported to retail outlets, marketed, and sold.

3D printers can only produce parts in plastic or sprayed metal. They can't drop forge for strength, or harden and temper with heat treatment. Mechanisation has been going on since the Luddites in the early 17C, from plugboard capstans, to CNC milling machines, to modern car production lines. Machines still need machine minders.

A well deserved +1. However, I've emboldened some words to emphasise your previous derogatory posts regarding transport. Hmm, another who realises that logistics plays a huge part in society asides from the military that is. Nice to see.

BTW, it's always best to close the door gently when leaving the house, as it means that the return can be just as gentle.

We'll be back!

We'll be back!

Yes! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YEG9DgRHhA

Machines will never be able to replace people completely imo. For instance in my job, people will always be needed, or doctors, nurses, daycare centers, psychiatrists, psychologists, priests, singers, ... and so on... I don't see machines doing those jobs...

---

rOZZ
Music
Pictures

As we all perhaps know, the amount of jobs available for people is steadily and rapidly decreasing. Thanks to massive innovations in the field of robotics and artificial intelligence, people are losing their jobs because computers and robots can do it better and cheaper.

But this poses a problem for the fundamental basis of our capitalist system, which is mass consumption. If people don't have jobs, and therefor don't have an income, they can't consume and the economy collapses.

So some people have proposed a nice alternative to welfare, namely the 'basic income'. This is a monthly payment everyone gets, with no strings attached. It would replace food stamps, welfare and all other social security programs and just leave you with this.

Do you think this would work?

Interesting idea, Мишель, but hardly very original.

Robert Heinlein, in his first novel explored something VERY similar as a solution to just this problem.

He wrote the novel "For Us, The Living: A Comedy of Customs" in 1938, but decided not to publish it. It was finally published in 2003 (I have a copy).

Society in the area of the current USA in the year 2086 had come up with the 'Heritage Check' system to combat just this issue -- lack of available jobs due to automation, etc.

It is an interesting read. I can see a few issues with it, but it appears to be rather well thought out by Heinlein.

For a link to a critique of the book, you may wish to visit this link:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_Us,_The_Living:_A_Comedy_of_Customs

At least it is something to think about when it comes time to address this problem.