A thought about the Galaxy and Universe


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Message 1144748 - Posted: 24 Aug 2011, 23:30:12 UTC

If the total mass of a galaxy is M
and the whole galaxy moving in space at speed V (I mean the linear speed not the rotation speed)
than the linear momentum of this galaxy is M*V (M multiply V)

but the M is not constant, it is gradually reducing because M is being converted to energy is all the star (there are 100 billion star in the Milky Way galaxy)

so my thought is, if M is reducing over time and the linear momentum must be constant,
than V will be increase over time.

just wondering any scientist thought of this?

(note: i am not scientist, i study Physics in University but after that never touch Physics again)

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Message 1144789 - Posted: 25 Aug 2011, 2:16:42 UTC - in response to Message 1144748.

M will never change. In no reaction is mass lost or gained. It may be converted to other energy forms which still have mass. I think you are attempting to figure out the potential kinetic energy of the galaxy with that formula
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Message 1144920 - Posted: 25 Aug 2011, 10:30:44 UTC - in response to Message 1144789.

That's right energy and mass are the same as far as equivalency is concerned.

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Message 1144933 - Posted: 25 Aug 2011, 11:28:04 UTC - in response to Message 1144748.

An interesting idea...

Although the "M" is unchanging for our universe as a whole despite being converted in many ways, there is one output of energy with respect to individual galaxies or even when considering a region of the universe:

Electromagnetic and gravitational radiation...


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Message 1145320 - Posted: 26 Aug 2011, 9:32:34 UTC - in response to Message 1144933.
Last modified: 26 Aug 2011, 9:49:55 UTC

Take and example
The Sun, about 4 million tonnes of mass are converted to energy every second in the Sun.
Once this energy leave the Sun (radiation out), only small part of this energy is absorbed by planets and the surrounding dust/astroid, most of this energy take thousand, million even billion years to reach the target.
While this energy travelling in space, this energy does not has mass (I guess).

If you consider the whole galaxy, there must be huge amount of mass converted to energy every second and huge amount of energy take million or even billion years before reach the target. So, at any moment there are huge amount of energy still in the 'journey' (the process of travelling from source to target)
and the amount of this energy is increasing over time.
So...that's why my thought is - the mass of the galaxy M is gradually reducing over time.

My question is: Does photon has mass? Than what is the mass of a photon?

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Message 1145329 - Posted: 26 Aug 2011, 10:00:16 UTC - in response to Message 1145320.

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. The photon has no rest mass but it does have equivalent mass. Try E=mc^2 and e=h(wavelength) where h is Planck's constant . Solve for m and you will see.

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Message 1145347 - Posted: 26 Aug 2011, 11:34:35 UTC

Some say the Uiverse is similar to the Gabriel's Horn Paradox, also called Torricelli's trumpet. i.e. infinite surface area but encloses a finite volume.

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Message 1145662 - Posted: 27 Aug 2011, 2:40:51 UTC - in response to Message 1145320.
Last modified: 27 Aug 2011, 3:33:52 UTC

My point is, due to the vastness of space,
most of the energy produced by star in is going into the state of 'journey'. (the process of traveling from source to destination)
And more and more of the energy produced by star are going into the state of 'journey'.

and when energy is in the state of journey, the energy does not has physical mass despite the equation E=MC^2

Once the energy reach the destination (planets, star dust, asteroid...etc)
the destination absorb the energy than only the equation E=MC^2 come into place to calculate the increase of the mass of the destination.

And there is a long delay in time (million, even billion of years) from the point of decrease of Mass of Star when it emit energy to the point of increase of mass of the destinations when the destination absorb the energy.

photon does not has physical body nor physical mass because it is simply a theoretical concept in Physics to describe packet of energy traveling in space (packet of energy in the state of 'journey')

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Message 1145756 - Posted: 27 Aug 2011, 10:44:28 UTC

E=mc^2 ...

Does that include momentum and gravitational potential energy? That is, do they exhibit effective gravitational mass?


Could the continued expansion of our universe be a side-effect of shifting (coalescing) gravitational potential energy?...


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Message 1146128 - Posted: 27 Aug 2011, 23:10:55 UTC - in response to Message 1145756.

Gravity would pull it in. Centrifugal force would push it out. I think the universe is spinning ; about what axis i have no idea.

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Message 1146896 - Posted: 29 Aug 2011, 20:29:11 UTC - in response to Message 1146128.
Last modified: 29 Aug 2011, 20:59:14 UTC

It is the fact that about 4 million tonnes of matter (mass) are converted to energy every second in the Sun.
That means our Sun is decreasing in mass (of matter) at rate of 4 million tonnes per second.

A Galaxy (example Milky Way) have about 100 billions star, So there must be huge amount of mass (matter) converted to energy every second.
That means the galaxy is decreasing in mass (of matter).

So if you consider only the matter part of mass M.
Momentum of a galaxy is M*V where V is the linear velocity of the galaxy.

If M decrease than V must increase because momentum of any moving body in space is constant.

Maybe this explain why the speed of galaxy is accelerating?

photon is not matter, photon has 0 diameter.
while Diameter of an electron d = 5.635880578916 x 10^-15 m
and diameter of an proton is about 2 x 10^-14.

light can be bent by gravity not because light has weight but it is because massive object causing curvature of space.

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Message 1147168 - Posted: 30 Aug 2011, 11:16:35 UTC

Maybe this explain why the speed of galaxy is accelerating?



Do you mean the observations that the farthest stars we can see are movving away from us at an increasing rate?

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Message 1147419 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 8:22:14 UTC - in response to Message 1147168.
Last modified: 31 Aug 2011, 8:30:27 UTC

Think of a rapidly rotating carnival ride. They used to have the kind that was like a big cereal bowl. You were pushed up against the sides with considerable force. If you were fixed in the center of the "bowl" you would observe objects moving in a curved line towards the boundary wall if they were in a free situation (not in a track). A thrown ball would appear to you as having a wicked curve. The speed would increase due to acceleration if the object were tethered or restrained (Gravity).

This coriolis effect would allow us to estimate the rotational speed. I used to factor in this effect in writing computer programs to aim artillery shells. Even a one minute flight time would require significant correction depending on where you were on the Earth.

So is this an explanation. Is the Universe spinning causing the galaxies to fly apart. Where is the center ?? Where is the axis of rotation. Would the acceleration increase with distance from the center? Is there a slight curvature to the line of acceleration? You tell me; i've done my part. Sort of like a latter-day Fritz Zwicky--or do you prefer Dark Matter or revisions to Newton and Einstein.

So: I suggest a new model that allows for rotation of the entire universe. This would also explain the Milky Way-like structure of pinwheel galaxies. Drop some powdered cream into a cup of black coffee that you are stirring with a swizzle stick and you will see what I mean.

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Message 1147514 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 16:15:32 UTC

Hmmmmmmm

Galaxys as independent clusters of stars, do indeed spin in spirals, but what is the ratio of clockwise to anti-clockwise as seen from earth? And why do they spin in the first place?

That does not pre-suppose however that the universe, or the observable amount of it that we can see, is also spinning around, causing this effect.

If you look at a time lapse film of an explosion, you will see various bits spinning in the expanding field of debris. In a vacuum they will keep going.

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Message 1147551 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 17:37:45 UTC - in response to Message 1147514.

Hmmmmmmm

Galaxys as independent clusters of stars, do indeed spin in spirals, but what is the ratio of clockwise to anti-clockwise as seen from earth? And why do they spin in the first place?

That does not pre-suppose however that the universe, or the observable amount of it that we can see, is also spinning around, causing this effect.

If you look at a time lapse film of an explosion, you will see various bits spinning in the expanding field of debris. In a vacuum they will keep going.


Perhaps the insight into spin can be equated to that of what occurs within the atom. The atom has it's electron/s spinning around it's nucleus without all these electrons the atom can no longer exists, unless of course it can grab some from somewhere else. Since the atom requires spin of some form to exist so perhaps does matter too. We can then go further up the chain and state that perhaps to exist in a fairly stable state that the universe itself requires spin in some form or other.

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Message 1147561 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 17:48:23 UTC

Perhaps the insight into spin can be equated to that of what occurs within the atom. The atom has it's electron/s spinning around it's nucleus without all these electrons the atom can no longer exists, unless of course it can grab some from somewhere else. Since the atom requires spin of some form to exist so perhaps does matter too. We can then go further up the chain and state that perhaps to exist in a fairly stable state that the universe itself requires spin in some form or other.


Well, even governments need spin to survive!

The atom is a basic unit of matter that consists of a dense, central nucleus surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons. The atomic nucleus contains a mix of positively charged protons and electrically neutral neutrons (except in the case of hydrogen-1, which is the only stable nuclide with no neutrons). The electrons of an atom are bound to the nucleus by the electromagnetic force.


So where does this electromagnetic force come from???

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Message 1147574 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 18:23:42 UTC - in response to Message 1147419.

Think of a rapidly rotating carnival ride. They used to have the kind that was like a big cereal bowl. You were pushed up against the sides with considerable force. If you were fixed in the center of the "bowl" you would observe objects moving in a curved line towards the boundary wall if they were in a free situation (not in a track). A thrown ball would appear to you as having a wicked curve. The speed would increase due to acceleration if the object were tethered or restrained (Gravity).

This coriolis effect would allow us to estimate the rotational speed. I used to factor in this effect in writing computer programs to aim artillery shells. Even a one minute flight time would require significant correction depending on where you were on the Earth.

So is this an explanation. Is the Universe spinning causing the galaxies to fly apart. Where is the center ?? Where is the axis of rotation. Would the acceleration increase with distance from the center? Is there a slight curvature to the line of acceleration? You tell me; i've done my part. Sort of like a latter-day Fritz Zwicky--or do you prefer Dark Matter or revisions to Newton and Einstein.

So: I suggest a new model that allows for rotation of the entire universe. This would also explain the Milky Way-like structure of pinwheel galaxies. Drop some powdered cream into a cup of black coffee that you are stirring with a swizzle stick and you will see what I mean.


Here's the problem: rotating systems tend to flatten out and the universe would end up looking like a super-sized galaxy.

We should see more galaxies clustered in directions 90 degrees from the axis yet space looks pretty much the same whatever direction you look. So it would have to be spinning along an infinite number of spin axes to produce such an even spread of expansion. Sort of like a gyroscope with an infinite number of gimbals.

Also, since galaxies seem to be racing away from us in all directions, a rotating universe theory would have to place us at the exact center, back to a pre-Galileo, earth-centered cosmology. The odds of us just happening to be at the exact center of the universe are remote.

That space itself continues to expand is a simpler explanation. As space expands, stuff moves away. The farther something is from us, the more expanding space exists between us and it, the faster it appears to be moving.

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Message 1147578 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 18:27:34 UTC - in response to Message 1147561.

Perhaps the insight into spin can be equated to that of what occurs within the atom. The atom has it's electron/s spinning around it's nucleus without all these electrons the atom can no longer exists, unless of course it can grab some from somewhere else. Since the atom requires spin of some form to exist so perhaps does matter too. We can then go further up the chain and state that perhaps to exist in a fairly stable state that the universe itself requires spin in some form or other.


Well, even governments need spin to survive!

The atom is a basic unit of matter that consists of a dense, central nucleus surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons. The atomic nucleus contains a mix of positively charged protons and electrically neutral neutrons (except in the case of hydrogen-1, which is the only stable nuclide with no neutrons). The electrons of an atom are bound to the nucleus by the electromagnetic force.


So where does this electromagnetic force come from???


Ooooow?..Has to come from within the nucleus itself that I assume too creates
the shell structures around it that the electron orbits within.

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Message 1147584 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 18:38:12 UTC

Also, since galaxies seem to be racing away from us in all directions, a rotating universe theory would have to place us at the exact center, back to a pre-Galileo, earth-centered cosmology. The odds of us just happening to be at the exact center of the universe are remote.


Now here's an idea on this, Kenzie....what if it is not actually as we see it.
That in reality all bodies not tied together by gravity the space around them is expanding giving rise to the effect that they are racing away from us in all directions where in actual fact it's the space between us that is expanding.

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Message 1147674 - Posted: 31 Aug 2011, 21:28:39 UTC - in response to Message 1147584.
Last modified: 31 Aug 2011, 21:30:34 UTC

Also, since galaxies seem to be racing away from us in all directions, a rotating universe theory would have to place us at the exact center, back to a pre-Galileo, earth-centered cosmology. The odds of us just happening to be at the exact center of the universe are remote.


Now here's an idea on this, Kenzie....what if it is not actually as we see it.
That in reality all bodies not tied together by gravity the space around them is expanding giving rise to the effect that they are racing away from us in all directions where in actual fact it's the space between us that is expanding.

That is basically what I meant by the last paragraph in my post. Distance galaxies are moving away from us (and us from them) because the space between us and them is expanding. It makes it seem as if we are in the center of the universe but to someone living in a galaxy at the edge of our field of view (13 billion light years away) would also see galaxies racing away in all directions.

I think that this would also apply to things that are gravitationally bound like galaxies themselves or solar systems (or even things like atoms that are bound by nuclear forces) but the distances are too small for the effects to be measurable.

It also bears remembering that the universe is not under any obligation to confirm with the human concept of common sense.
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