In my opinion, a great way to stimulate the economy and create jobs here is to open full trade relations with Cuba.

How would this work? Well, here's the idea;
First and foremost, there is a huge market there just waiting for automobiles. It's true the average Cuban cannot afford a brand new car, but the Cuban government would certainly be a big customer. Ambulances, fire trucks, government cars, marine craft, etc. would be enough to give us a serious boost in sales, perhaps creating demand for labor here.

Next we can look at computers. While most components are imported and made in Asia, most of the pre-built systems are built and sold here. Dell, HP, etc.

In turn, Cuba would make billions off of tourism. As it stands, Cuba doesn't restrict Americans from visiting, rather the US forbids its people from visiting. With the cash flow from tourism and the purchase of Cuban products (tobacco, sugar, etc.) this would stimulate the Cuban economy which makes their country a bigger consumer for our retail market which creates demand for labor.

I could argue based on political reasons why I feel the embargo should be lifted, but I want to try as best as possible to leave politics out of this and just consider lifting the embargo from a purely economic perspective.

What do you guys and girls think about this?

Good Idea there - BUT I'd be loathe to go with FULL TRADE agreements (we've already seen the fiasco NAFTA has made}. Perhaps as openers a sugar/byproducts agreement such as raw sugar and Ethanol fuels in exchange for related equipment/technology (and an occational affordable Cuban Cigar). :)

Well, we certainly don't need a NAFTA type of arrangement, just open trade and tourism. NAFTA makes too much trade compulsory among other things (like the Labor Cooperation part of NAFTA). Screw all that, just allow trade and tourism.

We get sugar, tobacco, and a new trading partner to buy up cars, computers, and other things in need as so little has come into the country for so long. They get tourism and a new customer for the few commodities they produce.

Win-win situation for both countries.

except you can´t sell cars anywhere since no-one wants to buy them, hence GM etc.
try to make them better.

Methinks there are a lot of old Chevvys Fords, Chislers, etc down there that could use parts. And In my town we have a lot of auto parts manufacturers on layoff or slowdowns that a new market might solve. Yes there are a lot of Soviet equipment there but whose fault is that? Besides - who pays the shipping costs? CUBA DOES!

Perhaps a "new beginning" includes trade? One can hope! Trade will benifit everyone involved, imo.

“There’s been several remarks directed at the issue of the relationship between the United States and Cuba, so let me address this. The United States seeks a new beginning with Cuba,” - Obama on April 21, 2009

IMHO - it's about time something was done.
"Communist" States over time seem to be relaxing government control over economic intitiatives, and "Capitalistic" States seem to be drifting toward increased goverment control.
Perhaps within the next generation or two we won't know the difference except by name.
China opened up after re-establishing direct diplomatic relationships. Perhaps it is well to follow such historic results in this instance.

Through direct relationship it can be determined whether Cuba is really "Communist" or else a "Dictatorship" and further actions based on that determination.

Is Cuba "Communist" or "Castroite"?

When answering questions such as these, it's important to remember that communism is more of an economic doctrine than a political one. This is the pitfall that Sam Webb fell into on the Glenn Beck show where Beck (wrongly but unchallenged) equated communists to nazis.

From an economic standpoint, especially in regard to labor, the two are quite similar. From a political perspective, they are nothing alike. Nevertheless, if the question is in regard to government structure, then neither Cuba, China, nor anyone else is communist.

From an economic point of of view, Cuba is more communist than capitalist. I cannot say the same for China.

Cuba from a political standpoint is closer to fascism than communism. Authoritarian, hereditary title rule acts in its own interests. There is no real public ownership of public office, rather a regime that acts in its own interests, and certainly not a "dictatorship of the proliteriat" that communists strive for.

However, my point was to merely propose the economic implications of ending the trade embargo, along with the demand for product, and revenue gained by Cuba should such an event take place. So far, from an economic standpoint, I've heard no viable arguments as to why this shouldn't take place.

Perhaps a "new beginning" includes trade? One can hope! Trade will benifit everyone involved, imo.

“There’s been several remarks directed at the issue of the relationship between the United States and Cuba, so let me address this. The United States seeks a new beginning with Cuba,” - Obama on April 21, 2009

In view of the past few posts - exactly what are these plans for a New Beginning?
in our concept of Vox Populi - it's been a few months of wondering exactly what exactly is this new beginning.
Is it trade? Is it Diplomacy? Or is it Continuing RHETORIC?
IMHO - rhetoric is a base commodity of Capitol Hill -
published action seems to be a Government Secret!

I say let's meet em and decide to either
Hang em
or buy em a drink!

Rum, cigars Cuban in name only

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me@rescam.org

Rum, cigars Cuban in name only

Sounds like sour grapes to me. If your government won't let you find out what the real stuff is like, come on up to Canada and buy the real thing.

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opening up trades with cuba? hah.

america would be a stimulus for cuba. cuba would be a downturn for america. cuba has nothing of real value to export that america needs. sure they have tobacco products, sugar, etc. we already grow those items right here in the usa. why import it if we already have them? we have been doing fine without cuban cigars this whole time so why do we "need" them? we dont.

off the top of my head i think they only other major exports cuba has are fish and coffee. both of which we already have enough of in america.

what cuba primarely is, is a tourist destination. given the decades recent increase in canadian and uk tourism into cuba, they are becomming another bahamas or puertorico.


cuba also backed the euro as a "counterbalance" to the us dollar. they flat out don't like us. why should we trade with them when we would be getting the short end of the stick. i say leave the embargo and let them turn into another resort island like the rest of them.

if cuba ever brings anything to the plate to export, which we actually NEED, then maybe trades should reopen. until that day, im betting on everything staying just like it is.

Someone seems to forget who had missiles pointing at the USA a few years ago. As of World war II, the USA became the police of the world. It is not a duty we want, but is one we do to try and maintain world peace. With Obama in office, it looks like we will be relinquishing this roll and allowing some of the other countries to step up to the plate. While I don't like it, I think that China will be the next world police.
Before getting friendly with countries and opening up trade, make sure of the world you will be creating. The USA is now under the thumb of China all because Nixon wanted to open China to the world.
We have maintained the embargo because people are enslaved in Cuba and will remain so as long as the current power structure remains in Cuba. The trade that other countries have with Cuba only makes the government of Cuba stronger and allow it to oppress the people more. Is a cigar, a glass of rum or a trip to a tropical paradise worth it. If so, I think you should question your personal values.

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We have maintained the embargo because people are enslaved in Cuba and will remain so as long as the current power structure remains in Cuba. The trade that other countries have with Cuba only makes the government of Cuba stronger and allow it to oppress the people more. Is a cigar, a glass of rum or a trip to a tropical paradise worth it. If so, I think you should question your personal values.

Perhaps you should stop drinking koolaid and travel to Cuba and see if the people are "enslaved." Maybe you don't like the wages paid there, well you better look around the rest of the world first. Of course if you don't have access to the US market where everything is sold for ten times its value, you may not be able to pay those over inflated US wages to the workers either. So just who is holding those chains?

True, unlike the USA, you can't join a group like say Operation Rescue that actively promotes the breaking of the law of the land without repercussions, but that isn't enslavement, that is preventing treason, a legitimate function of any government.

The hubris that is the USA simply can't accept the fact that the people of Cuba in an open free election would overwhelmingly vote Mr. Castro in. The USA simply can't fathom this and instead interferes in Cuba as it does with many countries around the world. The US needs to stop trying to impose its Constitution on other countries. I would have thought Vietnam would have been enough lesson, but obviously not, especially in light of Iraq.

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Someone seems to forget who had missiles pointing at the USA a few years ago. As of World war II, the USA became the police of the world. It is not a duty we want, but is one we do to try and maintain world peace. With Obama in office, it looks like we will be relinquishing this roll and allowing some of the other countries to step up to the plate. While I don't like it, I think that China will be the next world police.
Before getting friendly with countries and opening up trade, make sure of the world you will be creating. The USA is now under the thumb of China all because Nixon wanted to open China to the world.
We have maintained the embargo because people are enslaved in Cuba and will remain so as long as the current power structure remains in Cuba. The trade that other countries have with Cuba only makes the government of Cuba stronger and allow it to oppress the people more. Is a cigar, a glass of rum or a trip to a tropical paradise worth it. If so, I think you should question your personal values.

after the fall of the union of soviet socialist republics, cuba basically had to open its self up to more tourism. what else are they going to do to make significant money?

i like what ya sais about china.

I have no problem with opening up to Cuba if they get the Castros out of power and have a little more open government. That is also the main problem I have with China. They still will not admit to Tianamen Square because the power structure that did it is still in power.
On the other hand, if the tourist had stayed away we would not be having this conversation because the Castros would have been out of power by now. Trade was taking place with Cuba long before the opened up to tourism. Russia overpaid for sugar, and I am sure that Rum and Cigars have always been available in many countries. I am also sure that many American products make it into Cuba by third party resellers. Something not known, we are still paying rent on Guantanamo Bay even if the checks are not cashed and the US weather service and Cuban weather service work hand in hand. People living in the US are able and do send large amounts of money to relatives living in Cuba. We also do sell grain and other products to Cuba.
It's a strange world we live in.

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opening up trades with cuba? hah.

america would be a stimulus for cuba. cuba would be a downturn for america. cuba has nothing of real value to export that america needs. sure they have tobacco products, sugar, etc. we already grow those items right here in the usa. why import it if we already have them?

CryptokiD: Buying coffee and tobacco from Cuba at a reduced cost to us frees up land in the US to produce more important items such as staple food or use greater tracks of land for wind energy and the like. The biggest benefit is selling Cuba automobiles which they will buy especially with the billions annually in tourism.

Someone seems to forget who had missiles pointing at the USA a few years ago.

Dena Wiltsie: Not a few years ago, almost 50 years ago. Meanwhile, Russia had missiles pointed at us only 19 years ago and we do business with them. But our biggest business partner of all, China, has missiles pointed at us RIGHT NOW. That's not a good enough excuse.

Before getting friendly with countries and opening up trade, make sure of the world you will be creating. The USA is now under the thumb of China all because Nixon wanted to open China to the world.
We have maintained the embargo because people are enslaved in Cuba and will remain so as long as the current power structure remains in Cuba. The trade that other countries have with Cuba only makes the government of Cuba stronger and allow it to oppress the people more. Is a cigar, a glass of rum or a trip to a tropical paradise worth it. If so, I think you should question your personal values.

Countries that we ignore or embargo do not turn around for us. This is precisely what pushes places like the DPRK, Iran, Burma act like they do. 50 years of embargo doesn't work and your answer is to keep it going. But the difference between us is that you're looking at this from a political perspective, I'm looking at it from an economic perspective. Well, ok, but all I can say is that 50 years of the policy you support here has not worked. I don't believe in continuing failed policy. As for enslavement, look to Russia and China for sex slaves and organized crime with numbers that rival our own. Citing that people are enslaved in Cuba is selective enforcement of your values.

[quote]opening up trades with cuba? hah.

america would be a stimulus for cuba. cuba would be a downturn for america. cuba has nothing of real value to export that america needs. sure they have tobacco products, sugar, etc. we already grow those items right here in the usa. why import it if we already have them?

CryptokiD: Buying coffee and tobacco from Cuba at a reduced cost to us frees up land in the US to produce more important items such as staple food or use greater tracks of land for wind energy and the like. The biggest benefit is selling Cuba automobiles which they will buy especially with the billions annually in tourism.

Someone seems to forget who had missiles pointing at the USA a few years ago.

Dena Wiltsie: Not a few years ago, almost 50 years ago. Meanwhile, Russia had missiles pointed at us only 19 years ago and we do business with them. But our biggest business partner of all, China, has missiles pointed at us RIGHT NOW. That's not a good enough excuse.


Actually, areas where tobacco and sugar are currently grown in the usa are not typically a good area for wind energy. We could argue pros and cons of the ideas you mentioned, but I like to think i already won the arguement, because we are still not buying and selling to cuba. the cost benefit is just not there.

Also, about the missle statements that were made, I may be reading you guys's statements wrong and if i am please disreguard this,

But I'd like to point out that cuba did not have missles pointed at us. Well, maybe some model rockets, or some minor missles? However if you guys are refering to the historical "cuban missle crysis" that everyone remembers, it was the former ussr missles run by ussr people, that for strategic reasons, just happen to be in cuba. cuba is afterall, a heck of a lot closer to the usa then the former ussr. the physical location of cuba and the fact that they got along pretty well with the former ussr is the only reason these ussr made missles were ever on cuban soil. If there ever was to be a missle strike, cuba is 90 miles from the southern tip o' florida. You could practically wind surf from cuba to florida if one were so inclined, and living in southern florida, i have met a cuban refugee who did in fact wind surf from cuba to florida. I have met a lot of refugees from cuba, actually.

Actually, areas where tobacco and sugar are currently grown in the usa are not typically a good area for wind energy. We could argue pros and cons of the ideas you mentioned, but I like to think i already won the arguement, because we are still not buying and selling to cuba. the cost benefit is just not there.

Given that there's a trade embargo this comment makes no sense. It may be that the price of sugar would drop as a result of Cuba entering into a competitive marketplace, but while the embargo is in place we cannot know. Remove the trade embargo and let the market do what it does best. The market for cigars may not be huge, but it's almost certain that the price of Cuban cigars is inflated in the US due to their being illicit product. But to support the continuation of a trade embargo on the because there is no trading, is simply circular reasoning.

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I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ...

what i meant was, if there was a good reason to trade with cuba, (say they had something we really needed and were in short supply of, or something vastly cheaper then we are currently importing it for) the embargo would be lifted, and we would be trading with them, even if only for specialized, limited, items.