(Note that Tom-Tom and another company have recently been stomped on by Microsoft. They were forced to "settle out of court" rather than attempt to stand up to the largest legal department on this planet...)

More "Microsoft hatred" as all I'm hearing. "Oh, Microsoft's legal department is a bunch of bullies!" "Oh, Microsoft's legal department is attacking some other company into settling out of court!" "That big bully Microsoft is just so evil"...

So what is your spin on Microsoft vs Tom-Tom GPS over the now very old VFAT disk format?

Why did Microsoft single out Tom-Tom?

Why have there been no such cases brought out many years ago against many others?

Indeed, why did the Tom-Tom case not go to court?

Why does the RIAA pick on a select few individuals? Why do the local police pick on a select few individuals?

Because its a random thing that doesn't really have a starting point, but things must get started somehow. I'm not saying strong-arm tactics don't happen - of they do, lawsuits involve lawyers, but that doesn't really change anything else in the world either.

Indeed, why didn't Tom-Tom go to court? Why didn't they want to have their day? Because they didn't think they could afford to go against Microsoft or because they didn't think they had a case? I assure you that if it were me and I knew I was in the right, I'd be demanding my right to a trial before a judge, even if it meant damn near bankrupting myself to do so. That only leaves me to assume Tom-Tom didn't feel the same way.

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"The Real Story" is that for the past 23 days, I've been busy sorting out people's netbooks. All of them had Linux on & many disliked it even though they were "aware" of linux. They found it difficult to use & wanted them to be as familiar as their desktops.

Several of them were amazed that I got Win7 to run nicely on them & requested that when Win7 becomes available, "Can I put it on them"

Until linux becomes as familiar as Windows, Linux "Pushers" might as well call it a day. All I can see on many forums is that as soon as any thing Microsoft publishes/produces, the *nix guys are in there mouthing off. I've even seen this on MS's own forums. WTH are linux geeks doing there? If not to rubbish them.

My take is that *nix users don't have a top notch company to consolidate them, so take their hatred/fustration out on MS and anything MS related. SAD!

I would love to install & use Linux with the ease of Windows, My hands will be constantly rubbing together in anticipation of all that lovely lolly $$$$$$$$$$$$$. Unfortunately, it'll never happen in my lifetime & I think it took courage for Linus to come out & say what he did. Kudos to the guy!

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Intriguing how you both avoid/ignore the original questions and just regurgitate the old-isms against Linux.

The RIAA lawsuits (or rather "scare tactics") were (note the past tense) in effect random. The first and only case taken to court (rather than settlement) quashed the whole silly bonanza. Full kudos to the woman that did indeed risk all to take some nameless suits to court. Ofcourse, those nameless suits didn't have their own homes and their lives on the line. Rather an uneven contest... On that gamble, the RIAA should no longer be pursuing that line of suing their own customers.

In contrast, I strongly suspect that Tom-Tom were a very deliberate target to be used as a scapegoat to set an easy precedent. Note that just the mere whiff of a court case could well be enough to damage them enough to then put them out of business. What is right or wrong is irrelevant if you're dead.

An interesting question is why is Microsoft chasing a VFAT attack so very late in the day now, rather than many years ago? Is this a "submarine-patents" attack?

And obviously more and more people are using Linux on their desktop machines...


So... Back to an honest question a few posts back to let the champions of Microsoft Windows show how good and fair the favoured company and OS are:

"... no need for futile "links" wars.

I've shown a selection of links from where I've been exploring on the web from a Google search about the Microsoft GPL story. For you to offer some balance to that, what is the "real" story that we should be following?"


I am honestly curious as to what non-Microsoft (positive) opinion there is concerning their first time submission of code under GPLv2. To make it easier, you're welcome to give positive examples for also other aspects of Microsoft if you wish.

Is that a fair question/request to allow you to balance this thread?

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

...I think it took courage for Linus to come out & say what he did. Kudos to the guy!

I agree on all counts on that.

I consider that the stance that Linus is taking is very likely the best for everyone concerned, and good for Linux.

There is still a lot of story yet to unfold I'm sure!

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

Intriguing how you both avoid/ignore the original questions and just regurgitate the old-isms against Linux.

On the contrary: intriguing how you turn every thread about Microsoft into a political one, and all you ever focus on is the political aspect of the company instead of focusing on their products and people's interest in using them. ...and when you do focus on their products, you regurgitate the "old-isms" that Microsoft is the only company that ever has, and suggest that they are the only ones that ever will suffer from viruses and BSoDs (OK, maybe the BSoDs is true because other companies don't call their crash screens BSoDs).

An interesting question is why is Microsoft chasing a VFAT attack so very late in the day now, rather than many years ago? Is this a "submarine-patents" attack?

Hardly an "interesting" question, rather an unimportant one. What does it matter? If a company decides they want to go after someone for abusing their copyright, then they have every right to do so, even if said company is considerably smaller than they are.

And obviously more and more people are using Linux on their desktop machines...

Not in my neck of the woods. Sure, I've seen people try it, but they always come back to Windows because it simply works. Their words, not mine.

So... Back to an honest question a few posts back to let the champions of Microsoft Windows show how good and fair the favoured company and OS are:

"... no need for futile "links" wars.

I've shown a selection of links from where I've been exploring on the web from a Google search about the Microsoft GPL story. For you to offer some balance to that, what is the "real" story that we should be following?"

The real story? It seems to me that the "real" story of this thread was that Linus was saying "technology over politics". Let's focus on the technology rather than the company's politics. Companies are going to have lawsuits until the end of time, and I'm not a lawyer or politician, so I'm not really into having those kinds of conversations.

It seems that Microsoft's business tactics are the only focus of Linux afficionadoes or anti-MS extremists, instead of simply having the stance that they believe their technology is superior (which is their right to believe, and in some ways Linux can be for some niche applications).

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Most supercomputers in the top500 list run some Linux version.
Tullio

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'isms against Linux? Microsoft "fanboy" "Love apples - yes but only the actual fruit"

I am for no O/S over another. In fact they are as bad as each other. At the end of the day, NOTHING man-made is safe or secure.

Titanic ring a bell? Air crashes? Train crashes? etc etc etc.

I have never purchased a computer with Windows preinstalled, in fact I never purchased a retail rig from new, full stop!

After struggling with Linux years ago (before Windows, but using MS-Dos/DR-Dos etc), Along come Windows to make my computing easier & from that point onwards continued with both, but just could not get linux to work.

Along comes Windows 3.1 & 3.11WFG & it's goodbye Linux. From that point onwards, it was my choice to purchase Windows not Microsoft's.

As already pointed out elslewhere in this thread, I want my computers to do what I want & Linux just does not cut the mustard. Windows is not perfect, but the majority of computer users are familiar with it & that's what THEY want, not some enthusiast's version of an operating system that has multiple variations of the same theme with little standardisation.

I for one would be more than happy if some company standardised it with a simple & familiar interface like Windows. However, if that happens, it will no longer be FREE because no company could afford the resources to do this & then give it away.

Should this happen, I wonder how long before A: it becomes successful enough for hackers to target it B: With Microsoft becoming the "little boy", How long before they show their hatred/frustation with Linux users C: Same as B but the "Apple eaters"

What I detest about Linux/Microsoft/Apple "Geeks/Nerds/Fanboys" is that they forgot why they bought or built a computer for in the first place, as all I can see is O/S wars.

Windows works for me, Linux doesn't! Linux works for others, Windows doesn't. SO WHAT! They work for that person & that should be sufficient.

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In contrast, I strongly suspect that Tom-Tom were a very deliberate target to be used as a scapegoat to set an easy precedent. Note that just the mere whiff of a court case could well be enough to damage them enough to then put them out of business. What is right or wrong is irrelevant if you're dead.

More than likely, because Tom-Tom would not have a well-funded, extensive legal team.

Same thing with Buffalo. CSIRO (yes, the same one that runs the Parkes radiotelescope) picked Buffalo to test their WiFi patents.

Of course, Buffalo got help from folks like Intel who want to keep selling WiFi chips, but if Buffalo lost, they would have set the precedent.

Either way, you don't want to kill the company you're suing. They need to stay alive long enough to get into court.

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Most supercomputers in the top500 list run some Linux version.
Tullio

How many supercomputers are there compared to standard computers? How many people can afford a supercomputer? How many average people could run a supercomputer without their own IT staff to support it?

Just because a "supercomputer" uses A over B (hardware, OS, etc.), doesn't inherently make it better than the other, nor is it really the point of everyday computing.

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Most supercomputers in the top500 list run some Linux version.

How many supercomputers are there compared to standard computers? How many people can afford a supercomputer? How many average people could run a supercomputer without their own IT staff to support it?

Just because a "supercomputer" uses A over B (hardware, OS, etc.), doesn't inherently make it better than the other, nor is it really the point of everyday computing.

Good squirming there...

More of a point is that the Linux kernel is equally at home on supercomputers, right through the full range all the way down to home network routers and mobile phones. I believe Linux runs most of the internet also...

Let me guess your next retort? That it can't be any good to be so flexible as to run so well on such a wide range of hardware?...


But before this all descends into sour grapes and silliness, can we get back to the original thread about the latest manoeuvre from Microsoft?

I've listed the top ten or so comments around the web about the "historic" first contribution from Microsoft to GPL Open Source code. All the comments raise suspicions and/or are very negative.

So where/what are the positive comments about the latest Microsoft move regarding GPL open source code? Are there any anywhere?


Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... After struggling with Linux years ago (before Windows, but using MS-Dos/DR-Dos etc), Along come Windows to make my computing easier & from that point onwards continued with both, but just could not get linux to work.

Along comes Windows 3.1 & 3.11WFG & it's goodbye Linux. From that point onwards, it was my choice to purchase Windows not Microsoft's.

For myself, it was all Windows until WinXP (I skipped all the Win98 versions) and the virus/malware silliness caused me to look up Linux. First thing was that s@h-classic + SetiQ + SetiSpy + WINE on Linux ran FASTER than the native WinXP! No anti-virus needed. No firewall needed even! The graphical displays looked better than the Windows desktop, and you had a choice of multiple desktops!! No contest.

The multitasking and multithreading on Linux was also well ahead of Windows at that time. Also, you now even have a choice of schedulers for the CPU and for IO if you did want to get geekie...

... Windows works for me, Linux doesn't! Linux works for others, Windows doesn't. SO WHAT! They work for that person & that should be sufficient.

That's fine, and no problem there. I consider the problem is more the attitude that certain people in Microsoft have towards Linux and any other competition or innovation. Most of what you see on the web is the reaction to that...

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

i was under impression that this thread was about linus and he´s sayings, but martin is trying to prove that i am misguided cause he talks about linux all the time regardless of given topic, funny, i was sure that i read right.

I consider the problem is more the attitude that certain people in Microsoft have towards Linux and any other competition or innovation.

Martin........
why don't you take your attitude and direct it towards these individuals at MS as we here can do nothing about it?

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Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....Boinc....

Most supercomputers in the top500 list run some Linux version.

How many supercomputers are there compared to standard computers? How many people can afford a supercomputer? How many average people could run a supercomputer without their own IT staff to support it?

Just because a "supercomputer" uses A over B (hardware, OS, etc.), doesn't inherently make it better than the other, nor is it really the point of everyday computing.

Good squirming there...

Squirming? Are you serious? Am I putting the pinch on you that hard that you have resorted to this?

More of a point is that the Linux kernel is equally at home on supercomputers, right through the full range all the way down to home network routers and mobile phones. I believe Linux runs most of the internet also...

Linux sure does. As I stated previously, Linux has a niche in many market segments, but they have still failed to become a serious PC OS contender. It sure seems like you're trying hard to convince us otherwise, and bringing up all sort of market segments were Linux has done well as some sort of proof of its success. Linux is a fine OS that is quite powerful and can do extremely well in low powered applications where Windows just needs too much grunt work to get it to perform adequately. When Linux is coded to perform a single function really well, it does the job. When Linux is required to be a very complex, diverse primary Operating System that can run anything off the shelf, it falls seriously short.

Let me guess your next retort? That it can't be any good to be so flexible as to run so well on such a wide range of hardware?...

Nope. Guess you were wrong. BTW, I don't "retort". I give observable facts.

But before this all descends into sour grapes and silliness, can we get back to the original thread about the latest manoeuvre from Microsoft?

Umm.. no, because that wasn't the original topic, and I believe I already explained to you that I'm not interested in having political discussions about Microsoft's motives and actions, no matter how many times you try to bring it up and suggest your own conclusions.

I've listed the top ten or so comments around the web about the "historic" first contribution from Microsoft to GPL Open Source code. All the comments raise suspicions and/or are very negative.

...and every one of them are from anti-Microsoft sites.

So where/what are the positive comments about the latest Microsoft move regarding GPL open source code? Are there any anywhere?

You seem to enjoy searching. Find them yourself.

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One major "positive" comment regarding Microsoft seen on many forums....

Mac fans......."I'm gobsmacked! Win7 looks great, may even install it on my Mac"..........SHOCK..Horror... Win 7 on a mac? Whatever next?

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I consider the problem is more the attitude that certain people in Microsoft have towards Linux and any other competition or innovation.

... why don't you take your attitude and direct it towards these individuals at MS as we here can do nothing about it?

It is we here that keep them in business, and our acquiescence shapes their business.

From what I see:

At least the apparent mini-flop of Vista appears to have positively shaped Windows 7 to be a little more user friendly. Also, user, regulatory and hardware manufacturers backlash is so far keeping the worst of DRM, WGA, 'Trusted Computing' and Palladium all at least partially muted...

And it us that pays for the things!

You always have the power to do something.

Regards,
Martin

(All just my own personal views as always.)

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

... When Linux is required to be a very complex, diverse primary Operating System that can run anything off the shelf, it falls seriously short.

That's where our views differ.

... can we get back to the original thread about the latest manoeuvre from Microsoft?

Umm.. no, because that wasn't the original topic, and I believe I already explained to you that I'm not interested in having political discussions about Microsoft's motives and actions, no matter how many times you try to bring it up and suggest your own conclusions.

For such an 'historic' move by Microsoft, requiring direct comment from Linus Torvalds, and generating such a huge stir in web articles around the world, you wish to ignore the circumstances and politics?...

Phew! Almost like ignoring why America put Man on the moon 40 years ago.

I've listed the top ten or so comments around the web about the "historic" first contribution from Microsoft to GPL Open Source code. All the comments raise suspicions and/or are very negative.

...and every one of them are from anti-Microsoft sites.

So where/what are the positive comments about the latest Microsoft move regarding GPL open source code? Are there any anywhere?

You seem to enjoy searching. Find them yourself.

Does that suggest that you can't find any?


I thought you were the champion of "Microsoft The Underdog"?...


You've stirred quite a thread with the Linus quote. Have you really no thought as to why he gave the quote?

Regards,
Martin

---

See new freedom: Mageia Linux
Take a look for yourself: Linux Format
The Future is what We all make IT (GPLv3)

I am honestly curious as to what non-Microsoft (positive) opinion there is concerning their first time submission of code under GPLv2. To make it easier, you're welcome to give positive examples for also other aspects of Microsoft if you wish.

1) It gives industrial credit to the GPL;
2) Proves that MS is more than paying attention to its competitor "Linux";
3) Based on the specific code submission, it shows that virtualization is blurring brand/platform loyalty... meaning that it will becoming increasingly important that Linux have "a clear focus and purpose in the computing world" that is overlapping but very distinct from a typical MS Windows desktop.

I do welcome the submission with reservation. I believe it's very important for the code to be peer-reviewed by some Linux kernel hackers. Actually, I'm sure people are already doing this as we talk about it here.

You've stirred quite a thread with the Linus quote. Have you really no thought as to why he gave the quote?

Regards,
Martin

cause he dislikes linux users who hate microsoft, isn´t that quite obvious.

For such an 'historic' move by Microsoft, requiring direct comment from Linus Torvalds, and generating such a huge stir in web articles around the world, you wish to ignore the circumstances and politics?...

Phew! Almost like ignoring why America put Man on the moon 40 years ago.

...

You've stirred quite a thread with the Linus quote. Have you really no thought as to why he gave the quote?

I take it at face value. Linus made the quote because of people like you that turn everything political about computing. Its your right to be concerned with Microsoft's politics, and its even your prerogative to think that everyone else should be interested as well, but don't be so surprised when people simply aren't interested and have no intention of ever doing so.

Your Microsoft hatred is a disease, Martin, and I think you need an intervention to overcome this. :) I thought that by posting this from your precious Linux inventor that it would carry more weight, but I see you've ignored it and have still perversed the meaning for your own purposes. o.O

Does that suggest that you can't find any?

Does that suggest that you are incapable of doing the work yourself? Or, more likely, does that suggest that you refuse to ever find anything good about Microsoft on the web and you only seek out what you want to seek out - that which supports your agenda.

I thought you were the champion of "Microsoft The Underdog"?...

You did? LOL That's funny, I thought Linux was the Underdog and that you were the overzealous champion.

Let me point out the facts here for you once again: I am not Pro Microsoft, I just offer balance to your anti-Microsoft rants. I am the yin to your yang. I honestly don't care what OS people run. I'm not a "Windows pusher" like you are a Linux pusher - in every possible thread you see someone complaining about Windows, you attempt to push Linux as an alternative.

The only thing I've ever set out to do was to attempt to convince you that Windows is an acceptable platform to run, just as acceptable as Linux is to you, and that unless someone specifically asks about Linux, you should perhaps respect their choice of OS and quite being a "pusher". There's millions of proud Windows users, and some that even frequent these forums. When someone like you gets overly aggressive about it, and even political or religious about it, people like me are bound to push back.

No, I'm not a champion of Microsoft The Underdog. I'm just a proud Windows user that is sick of all the constant FUD Linux Pushers out there use to get people to switch - all so they can be "saved" and "freed" from the evil Microsoft clutches of hell.

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