An Italian built radar aboard the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter has found thick layers if ice on Mars. Go to www.nasa.gov or www.jpl.nasa.gov.
Tullio

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artistic impresion of buried glaciers some are said to be 1/2 mile thick and about the same area as Los Angeles

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Old enough to know better(but)still young enough not to care

Is it water ice or CO2 ??

Is it water ice or CO2 ??

H2O

Now we need NASA to create equipment that can autonomously land and process the Ice into water and then to H2 and O2 gases. Next launch humans to explore mars for several days and use the gases and launch material for the return to earth.

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

I was thinking that Mars might have some fairly deep caves. Mars is volcanic and has water in the form of subterranean ice. It may well be that on Mars the temperature a few yards underground may be warm enough to melt ice. There may be pools of water which could possibly harbor life in some caves and caverns.

It's a dead planet, and the found water can be the result of comet impacts.

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It's a dead planet, and the found water can be the result of comet impacts.

I would think that most comets would vapourise on impact as well as leave some a very small ammount of water at least after the "late bombardment" phase of the Solar System being "built"
It wasn't always thus,as Mars is the same age as Earth(4.3 billion years)it may well have evolved primitive life forms before it went in to the freezer permanently,also having some of the Solar Systems largest volcanoes there may well be areas that are still warm enough to melt the ice,at least to a slush, and you will have conditions suitable for life it will take People going there to find it,if that is so then Skildude is correct the various Space Agency's will need to send auto mated plant to convert this water ice in to fuel for the return journey.This in its self will be a major under taking.

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Old enough to know better(but)still young enough not to care

Is there data on the temperature on Mars a few feet below the surface. On earth cave temps are a constant 55 degrees fahrenheit.

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Is there data on the temperature on Mars a few feet below the surface. On earth cave temps are a constant 55 degrees fahrenheit.

You would have to go there to be able to measure it. But I have been in a Karst cave near Trieste (Grotta Gigante) and the temperature is the same in any season.
Tullio

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Cave temperatures (on Earth) depend on depth: go deeper, get’s hotter. Mostly due to our planet having a hot core. (Also because rock is a good moderator of solar heat, of course. But I think that most agree that solar heating alone would not be enough to promote liquid water on a distant, thin atmosphere world like Mars.)

The real question about liquid water on Mars is whether or not it’s core is still warm enough to promote geothermal action. Observation of the massive volcanoes show that it was active in the past but that it was never warm enough to have a liquid core so (massive volcanoes = no plate tectonics = no molten core), quite possibly, it has cooled so much that it can no longer produce enough heat to have liquid water.

Seems to me that this is the central question, but I haven’t been able to find any definitive sources on that question.

Fascinating subject tho!

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Pure mathematics is, in its way, the poetry of logical ideas.

Albert Einstein

yeah! it may a big discovery. bu i think it no use for us to kown more about the life in diffrerent plantes.scientis found many plante has warter.but......

Is there data on the temperature on Mars a few feet below the surface. On earth cave temps are a constant 55 degrees fahrenheit.

If you are in Kentucky. The closer you get to the Equator the higher the temp. National Geographic did an article about a lead mine in Mexico where they broke into a cavern where the average temp was 120 degrees F.

There are caves in the Canadian north where the temp is at freezingor below. The only constant about cave temps is that at a given location the temp will always remain the same. THis temp is based on the average temperature outside the cave

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In a rich man's house there is no place to spit but his face.
Diogenes Of Sinope

Is there data on the temperature on Mars a few feet below the surface. On earth cave temps are a constant 55 degrees fahrenheit.

If you are in Kentucky. The closer you get to the Equator the higher the temp. National Geographic did an article about a lead mine in Mexico where they broke into a cavern where the average temp was 120 degrees F.

There are caves in the Canadian north where the temp is at freezingor below. The only constant about cave temps is that at a given location the temp will always remain the same. THis temp is based on the average temperature outside the cave

There is a cave here in New Mexico that is always below freezing too.

The temperature in the cave depends a lot on how the mouth of the cave is shaped.

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The frost line does vary depending on where you live. It's how far down you have to dig your crawl space to keep it safe from heaving. Even in a cold place such as Champaign Illinois, it never freezes below 2 feet down. This indicates that heat is coming from the central core of the Earth.

Nasa says in its articles that the arctic and antarctic ice is melting , and all

this is happening at a time when the earths magentic fields are reversing , and we

know that the magnetospheres protect the earth from radiations and stuff , so could

there be more to this than global warming alone, just a thought we can share and has anyone tried to relate the two?

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We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

... so could

there be more to this than global warming alone, just a thought we can share and has anyone tried to relate the two?

There are a whole bunch of effects that add up to Global (Heating) Warming. By far the greatest biggest baddest 'recent' new effects are clearly from man-made CO2 pollution, other industrial pollution, farming, and from the large scale change in land use.

There is an old theory about cosmic rays or other particles from space 'seeding' cloud formation and so altering our climate. So far that theory continues to lack any positive evidence and so is discredited.


Good to question!

Keep searchin',
Martin

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In addition could there be some kind of direct effect of melting of ice and

interaction of magnetic field ,i know these one could be way of line but

interesting all the same .but this one can easily be tested by placing to blocks

of ice one in strong field and the other in no field or changing field and see

which one melts faster at same temperature.remember magetic fields affect

electrons which at least partly responsible for holding matter together.

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We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

here i have got something to give credit to what i am trying to put forward.
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/magnetic.html

Water, being dipolar, can be partly aligned by an electric field and this may be easily shown by the movement of a stream of water by an electrostatic source [163]. Very high field strengths (5 x 109 V m-1) are required to reorient water in ice such that freezing is inhibited [251], with lower fields (105 V m-1) encouraging ice formation in supercooled water [1327] by weakening the hydrogen bonding. Even partial alignment of the water molecules with the electric field will cause pre-existing hydrogen bonding to become bent or broken. The balance between hydrogen bonding and van der Waals attractions is thus biased towards van der Waals attractions giving rise to less cyclic hydrogen bonded clustering.



High interfacial fields (E > 109 V m-1, > thermal energy) at electrode (or charged) surfaces can cause a phase transition with an ordered layering of water at high densities similar to ice X [420]. Depending on the value of the field, the restriction pressures may cause melting or freezing as corresponding to the normal phase behavior [873]. High fields (E ~109 V m-1) might also be found (perhaps surprisingly) at the surface of hydrophilic molecules where caused by the partial charges on the atoms and the small distances between the surface and first hydration layer. High fields affect hydrogen bonding in an anisotropic manner, hydrogen bonds being strengthened along the field but weakened orthogonal to the field [582]. At low fields, however, both translational and rotational motions may be reduced. Electric fields are expected to increase the differences in the properties between the ortho and para forms of water [1186]. Electric fields also lower the dielectric constant of the water [616], due to the resultant partial or complete destruction of the hydrogen-bonded network.



Pure water is a poor conductor of electricity but is not a perfect insulator as it always contains ions due to self-ionization. Passage of an electric current causes electrolysis,f producing O2 at the anode and H2 at the cathode [1436]. At metallic electrodes, even quite low voltages can have impressive effects on the orientation of the water molecules and the positioning of ions [375].c A negative potential of -0.23 V orients water hydrogen atoms towards the electrode whereas +0.52 V reverses this; both causing some hydrogen bond breakage and localized density increase.d Ions are attracted or repelled dependent on their charge. Similar orientations may take place at the surface of minerals containing alternating positive and negative charges such that a solid (static and non-exchangeable) water layer has been reported at the surface of highly polar metal oxides, (for example, TiO2). Also, an ambient temperature single layer ice (with all the donor hydrogen bonds oriented towards each other or the silica surface oxygen atoms) is found, using modeling, on the surface of hydrophilic fully hydroxylated silica ([701], called ice tessellation), which may explain the many layers of structured water found at the surfaces of complex silicates. Thus, a high-voltage electric field (333 kV m-1) has been shown to raise the water activity in bread dough, so ensuring a more efficient hydration of the gluten [331]. Rather unexpectedly, such electric fields (~1 MV m-1) apparently increase water's surface tension by about 2% [680].e [Back to Top to top of page]
Magnetic effects on water

Liquid water is affected by magnetic fields [1522]. Water is diamagnetic and may be levitated in very high magnetic fields (10 T, compare Earth's magnetic field 50 μT) [170]. Lower, but still powerful, magnetic fields (0.2 T) have been shown, in simulations, to increase the number of monomer water molecules [192] but, rather surprisingly, they increase the tetrahedrality at the same time. Salt mobility is enhanced in strong magnetic fields (1-10 T) causing some disruption to the hydrogen bonding [1431]. However this only causes a net reduction in hydrogen bonding at high salt concentrations (for example 5 M NaCl), whereas at lower concentrations (1 M NaCl) the increase in water hydrogen bonding in the presence of such high magnetic fields more than compensates for this effect [1431]. They may also assist clathrate formation [485]. The increase in refractive index with magnetic field has been attributed to increased hydrogen bond strength [647]. Weak magnetic fields (15 mT) have also been shown to increase the evaporation rate [1278]. These effects are consistent with the magnetic fields weakening the van der Waals bonding between the water moleculesa and the water molecules being more tightly bound, due to the magnetic field reducing the thermal motion of the inherent charges by generating dampening forces [703]. Due to the fine balance between the conflicting hydrogen bonding and non-bonded interactions in water clusters, any such weakening of the van der Waals attraction leads to a further strengthening of the hydrogen bonding and greater cyclic hydrogen bonded clustering. This effect of the magnetic field on the hydrogen bonding has been further supported by the rise in the melting point of H2O (5.6 mK at 6 T) and D2O (21.8 mK at 6 T) [703] and the 3°C lowering of the sol-gel transition (at 0.3 T) in methylcellulose [1203], both indicating a weakening of the van der Waals bonding of the water molecules within a magnetic field. Far greater effects on contact angle and Raman bands have been shown to occur using strong magnetic fields (6 T) when the water contains dissolved oxygen (but not without the paramagnetic oxygen), indicating effects due to greater clathrate-type water formation [970].



Static magnetic effects have been shown to cause an increase in the ordered structure of water formed around hydrophobic molecules and colloids [106], as shown by the increase in fluorescence of dissolved probes [108]. Surprisingly, even very small magnetic fields may affect the solubility of gasses in seawater (solubility increasing with magnetic field (20-50 µT) [1492], probably by their effect on the clathrate stability. This reinforces the view that it is the movement through a magnetic field, and it associated electromagnetic effect, that is important for disrupting the hydrogen bonding. Such fields can also increase the evaporation rate of water and the dissolution rate of oxygen (due to its paramagnetic nature) but cannot, despite claims by certain expensive water preparations, increase the equilibrium amount of oxygen dissolved in water above its established, and rather low, equilibrium concentration [176]. Magnetic fields can also increase proton spin relaxation [623], which may speed up some reactions dependent on proton transfer. Treatment of water with magnetic fields of about one Tesla increases the strength of mortar due to its greater hydration [426]. [Back to Top to top of page]
Electromagnetic effects on water

Thus, it appears that electric and magnetic fields have opposite effects on water clustering. Unstructured water with fewer hydrogen bonds is a more reactive environment [286], as exemplified by the enhanced reactivity of supercritical water.b An open, more hydrogen-bonded network structure slows reactions due to its increased viscosity, reduced diffusivities and the less active participation of water molecules. Any factors that reduce hydrogen bonding and hydrogen bond strength, such as electric fields, should encourage reactivity. Water clusters (even with random arrangements) have equal hydrogen bonding in all directions. As such, electric or electromagnetic fields that attempt to reorient the water molecules should necessitate the breakage of some hydrogen bonds; for example, electric fields have been reported to halve the mean water cluster size as measured by 17O-NMR [111] (see also 'declustered' water) and increase reaction rates [1336], hydration and solubility. Electromagnetic radiation (for example, microwave) has been shown to exert its effect primarily through the electrical rather than magnetic effect [455]. The increased hydration ability of water in electromagnetic fields has been shown by the dissociation of an enzyme dimer (electric eel acetylcholinesterase), leading to gel formation, due to the microwave radiation from a mobile phone [714]. The resultant aqueous restructuring caused by such processes may be kinetically stable.



The solubility properties of the water will change in the presence of such fields and may result in the concentration of dissolved gases and hydrophobic molecules at surfaces followed by reaction (for example, due to reactive singlet oxygen (1O2) or free radical formation such as OH·) or phase changes (for example, formation of flattish surface nanocavities, termed nanobubbles [506]). It is also possible that these processes may result in the production of low concentrations of hydrogen peroxide in a similar manner to mechanical vibrations [1066, see equations]. Such changes can clearly result in effects lasting for a considerable time, giving rise to claims for 'memory' effects. One of the curious facts, concerning reports of the effects of magnets and electromagnetic radiation on the properties of water, is the long lifetime these effects seem to have (for example, [757]). This should not be so surprising, however, as it can take several days for the effects, of the addition of salts to water, to finally stop oscillating [4] and several months where such solutions are still changing [1148]. Also, there is evidence that water structuring in still deaerated pure water increases over a period of a day or two [509], changes in dilute ethanol solution over a period of days [1102], and in homeopathic preparations over hundreds of days [1039], clathrates may persist metastably in water [485], water restructuring after infrared radiation persists for more than a day [730], and water photoluminescence (possibly due to impurities at gas/liquid interfaces [800b]) changes over a period of days [801].



In addition to the breakage of hydrogen bonds electromagnetic fields may perturb in the gas/liquid interface and produce reactive oxygen species [110]. Changes in hydrogen bonding may effect carbon dioxide hydration resulting in pH changes. Thus the role of dissolved gas in water chemistry is likely to be more important than commonly realized [459]; particularly as the formation of nanobubbles (that is, nanocavities) [506, 1129, 1172] containing just a few hundred or less molecules of gas, the stability of larger bubbles (~300 nm diameter) detected by light scattering [800a] and nanobubble coating of hydrophobic surfaces [803] have all been recently described. Reinforcement of this view comes from the effect of magnetized water on ceramic manufacture [601] and out-gassing experiments that apparently result in the loss of magnetic and electromagnetic effects [110, 800a] or photoluminescent effects [800b]. Gas accumulating at hydrophobic surfaces [459b] promotes the hydrophobic effect and low-density water formation. The accumulated gas molecules at such hydrophobic surfaces becomes supersaturating when electromagnetic effects disrupt this surface low-density water. An interesting (and possibly related) 'memory of water' phenomenon is the effect of water, previously exposed to weak electromagnetic signals, on the distinctive patterns and handedness of colonies of certain bacteria [971]. Here, the water retains the effect for at least 20 minutes after exposure to the field.



If electromagnetic effects do indeed influence the degree of structuring in water [1323], then it is clear that they may have an effect on health. The biological effects of microwaves, for example, have generally been analyzed in terms of their very small heating effects. However, it should be recognized that there might be significant non-thermal effects (for example, [714]) due to the imposed re-orientation of water at the surfaces of biomolecular structures such as membranes [356]. Similar effects on membranes have been proposed to occur due to magnetic [657] and electric fields [1086]. Additionally as low-frequency, low level alternating electric fields have been found to affect the electrical conductivity of pure water [358], the effects of living near power cables and microwave towers should, perhaps, not be thought harmless just because no theory for harm has been formally recognized. Even variations in the geomagnetic field may have some long-term exposure effects. [Back to Top to top of page]
Other related effects

Recently, there has been some debate over 'digital biology'; a proposal from Jacques Benveniste (leader of the team that produced the controversial homeopathy paper) that 'specific molecular signals in the audio range' (hypothetically the 'beat' frequencies of water's infrared vibrations) may be heard, collected, transmitted (for example, by phone) and amplified to similarly affect other water molecules at a receiver [134, 1211]. This unlikely idea is generally thought highly implausible. The data has, however, reportedly been independently confirmed but this has not yet been published (which may be rather problematic in the present skeptical climate). Note that experimental confirmation of the phenomenon may not necessarily confirm the proposed mechanism. Rather interestingly, however, electromagnetic emission has been detected during the freezing of supercooled water [297] due to negative charging of the solid surface at the interface caused by surface ionization of water molecules followed by preferential loss of hydrogen ions [462]; a consequence, perhaps, of the Costa Ribeiro effect [551]. It is not unreasonable, therefore, that similar effects may occur during changes in the structuring of liquid water. Also, it has been reported that microwave frequencies can also give rise to signals audible to radar operators [356].



Belief in whether or not magnetic or electromagnetic fields can have any more permanent effect on water, and solutions, depends on the presence of a working hypothesis for their mode of action (see also homeopathy). Such hypotheses are emerging. On a cautionary note however, many studies either do not treat results with proper statistical rigor or do not use relevant 'untreated' material for comparison. Permanent changes to the structure of water are reported following exposure to resonant RLC (resistance inductance capacitance) circuits [927]. The effects, however, are small and poorly reproducible and, as with some of the other studies mentioned here, should be viewed with the possibility that pathological science is at work. [Back to Top to top of page]
Footnotes

a This effect has been shown in weakly bound van der Waals complexes as due to the coupling between magnetic-field induced energy levels (Zeeman levels) of the molecular orbitals [659]. [Back]



b Note that this may not extend to conditions of much-reduced hydrogen bonding. At close to critical and supercritical conditions, water molecules may become less reactive than expected with temperature increase due to the loss of hydrogen bonding causing consequential loss of the 'cage' effect, which encourages reactions within the 'cage', and reduced polarization activation. [Back]



c Note that the electric field strength across the surface monolayer of water molecules may be of the order of 1010 V m-1 for just a few volts applied potential. [Back]



d The binding of water molecules to uncharged metal surfaces depends on the nature of the metal. On a platinum Pt(111) surface, half the water molecules form Pt····OH2 links with the other half forming Pt····H-OH bonds due to the balance between Pt····H hydrogen bond formation and H-O bond weakening. Other metal surfaces may prefer one or the other water orientation or cause partial dissociation of the protons dependent on their proton affinity [523]. [Back]



e There is some dispute over the effects of electric and magnetic fields on surface tension. Electric and magnetic fields have been reported to lower the surface tensions of natural water by up to 8% [735]. However, it has been noted elsewhere that surface tension measurements are too sensitive to impurities to provide reliable data [979]. Recently, high magnetic fields (10 T) have been reported as increasing the surface tension of water by almost 2%, with this being possibly due to the stabilization of the hydrogen bonds or the dampening of surface waves [1471]. [Back]



f Using very high voltages with high power (~100 kV, >1000 A), an electric discharge through the water may result giving a plasma channel (>10,000 K) with a wide emission spectrum from vacuum ultraviolet to infrared [1076]. Such a system produces significant quantities of OH· radicals, singlet oxygen (1O2), peroxide (H2O2) and ozone (O3). [Back]





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This page was last updated by Martin Chaplin on 10 Nov 2008

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We choose to go to the moon and to do other things, we choose to go to the moon not because its easy but because its hard. kennedy

Having a supply of frozen H2O on Mars could go a long way towards supporting an ongoing human presence there, providing we have the economic and intellectual capital to spend on making it happen.

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Atlanta Bankruptcy, California Bankruptcy, or moral Bankruptcy -- choose your poison.