The first biodiesel was used oil from restaurant's friers. This makes sense as it was going to a landfill otherwise. Burning it was a little smelly.

Making Biofuels from things that would otherwise go to the landfill (table scraps for example) is a good idea, but probably insufficient.

Biofuels from corn stalks might be a good idea, but we have to figure out what the farmers are going to put in the fields instead of turning the corn stalks back under.

Biofuels from non-food crops has in some countries (Brazil for example) led to massive deforestation to create the fields to grow the crop. I read one estimate that put the carbon payback for this at around 200 years.

Biofuels from food crops are doing at least two bad things. First the practice is driving up the cost of food around the world. Second, it is not really helping the carbon footprint all that much. Estimates of the amount of diesel fuel to produce the equivalent in ethanol from corn run from 0.9 gallons of diesel to produce one gallon diesel energy equivalent of ethanol to 1.2 gallons of diesel to produce one gallon diesel energy equivalent of ethanol.

Hydrogen is not an energy source. It is an energy storage and transport mechanism. There is almost no free hydrogen on the Earth. Hydrogen has to be extracted from other chemicals (typically water, but petroleum can also be used) using at least as much energy to extract as you get back when you use it in the car.

All electric vehicles have a range problem in that they have an upper limit on how far they can go before you have to plug them in for a while (currently it is a few hours).

That said, I hope that my next commuting vehicle is either all electric or a series plug in hybrid. Aptera has a 2 seat vehicle that they claim will get 120 miles on a charge and go 90 MPH. The series hybrid version will go 60 miles on batteries and then get well over 100 MPG after that (not certain exactly what mileage they are quoting 300MPG). Chevrolet claims that the Volt will go 40 miles on batteries and get 80? MPG after that. The tesla roadster is claimed to go 250 miles on a charge and have a max speed of something like 200 MPH. Unfortunately for me, I have 3 people in the car for part of my commutes, and the Aptera and the Tesla are 2 seaters. the Tesla is also around 100K$. So far as I have been able to determine, the rest of the all electric vehicles have too short a range and too low a top speed. My round trip commute is over 50 miles, and much of it is interstate.

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BOINC WIKI

It's not Biofuels which are ruining the economy. It's ruined by the greed of the landowners. You could also say that growing any plant, or raising cattle is ruining the economy, it's as true or false as the title statement as well...

Actually it's the monoculture, the lacking variety and balance, the lacking care for soil and environment by growing only one kind... it's the thoughtlessness of the landowners confusing farming with industry, ... - it's the fact that many large land owners or farmers do specialize too much in only the most profitable harvest instead of having a high variety.

Sometimes when I read about the old and ancient times, I think the ancient people knew much much more about agriculture than we do today. They used their acres in turn for different plants - letting the soil of one of them rest for a year...

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They used their acres in turn for different plants - letting the soil of one of them rest for a year...

That's exactly what the farmer's here in America do, Thorin.

I don't know about anywhere else...but the farmers here know that if they grow one crop on a parcel of land for too long, they will " burn " the soil and it will be a while before they can get anything to grow effectively.

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
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Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

It's not Biofuels which are ruining the economy. It's ruined by the greed of the landowners. You could also say that growing any plant, or raising cattle is ruining the economy, it's as true or false as the title statement as well...

Actually it's the monoculture, the lacking variety and balance, the lacking care for soil and environment by growing only one kind... it's the thoughtlessness of the landowners confusing farming with industry, ... - it's the fact that many large land owners or farmers do specialize too much in only the most profitable harvest instead of having a high variety.

Sometimes when I read about the old and ancient times, I think the ancient people knew much much more about agriculture than we do today. They used their acres in turn for different plants - letting the soil of one of them rest for a year...

Imho, this is absurd. Farms today have to spend big bucks on fertilizer to keep their ground productive. Certain crops, such as alfalfa have a given lifespan, and tilling them under is not something that is done on a whim. There is considerable expense involved in tillage, and alfalfa cannot be planted there again for about 4 years. The ground has to be rotated. Leaving ground fallow, unless you are a millionaire farmer, or are receiving substantial subsidies, is NOT even an option. Lets say a farmer has 160 acres, instead of 16,000 acres. That is 4, 40 acre fields. Leaving one of the fields fallow every year would be like the average 40 hour per week employee telling their boss they really don't have any use for a 40 hour paycheck, so just pay me 30 hours per week, all year long, or only working 8 months out of the year instead of all 12. We have soil samples analyzed every year, so that we will know exactly how much fertilizer is REQUIRED to produce a certain type of crop. To effectively fertilize our alfalfa ground this year, would cost in the neighborhood of $500 per acre. With the price of alfalfa at about $125 per ton, and an average yield of 5 tons per acre, ($625 TOTAL per acre), the rising cost of getting water to it, (This year it was $12.50/acre), the cost of fuel, ($4.00+ per gallon of dyed diesel), the cost of getting the alfalfa cut, baled, hauled, stacked, marketed, etc. is HIGH. The profit margin is SLIM to none. Each kind of crop requires different set of machinery. Have you priced a combine lately? How about any 100+ HP tractor? Plow? Disk? Culti-packer? Harrow? Windrower? Baler? etc.? Even used equipment is difficult to find at a decent price, and then you have to fix whatever is wrong with it anyway. On top of all the expenses just to grow the crops, there is labor involved. It is impossible to find people to work for $500/month + room & board anymore. 30 years ago it happened all the time.

Granted, there are probably some huge farms that grow different crops, which have a profit margin that is much higher than growing animal foodstuffs. Between my brother and me, we are farming around 600 acres. - Actually my brother does most of the work, while keeping a 40 hour per week job, and I work full time (168 hours per week - on Natural Gas Wells, to help support the farm). Otherwise, without both of us working at least a full time job, we could NOT even keep the farm, let alone make any profit. Granted, this area has a shorter growing season than elsewhere in the country, less access to larger markets, and literally no access to human foodstuffs markets. We should move to a more profitable area, and grow more profitable crops. :)

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Farms today have to spend big bucks on fertilizer to keep their ground productive.

Don't you mean biosolids... As in, 'recycled people poop'... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Farms today have to spend big bucks on fertilizer to keep their ground productive.

Don't you mean biosolids... As in, 'recycled people poop'... ;)

Nope, I mean Nitrogen, Phosphate, Potassium, Zinc, Iron, etc.

People dung, is too hot for most soil. Cow manure works for some crops.

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It is impossible to find people to work for $500/month + room & board anymore. 30 years ago it happened all the time.

Give me $500/month + room & board and I'd be happy as a pig in poop! ;)

(Considering the cost of living today, I'm guessing most employers would decline.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I work full time (168 hours per week - on Natural Gas Wells, to help support the farm)

Hmmm... 168 hours per week, divided by 7 days per week, equals 24 hours of work per day...

Let me guess, you do all this with only one shoe... ;)

(Okay, I'm done picking apart your post now. Back to reality I go.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

It is impossible to find people to work for $500/month + room & board anymore. 30 years ago it happened all the time.

Give me $500/month + room & board and I'd be happy as a pig in poop! ;)

(Considering the cost of living today, I'm guessing most employers would decline.)

That would be living ON the farm, eating ON the farm, being available for work 24/7, knowing how to operate some of the most dangerous equipment on earth - safely and efficiently..... Not too many people available for actual farm work these days. Most people want a minimum of $10/hr, and they are mostly unreliable, unknowledgeable, and unfit for farm work, and unavailable 24/7.

If I had a million dollars in my pocket, I would have big pockets. LOL. I sure as @#$% wouldn't invest it in farming. It wouldn't last very long.

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That would be living ON the farm, eating ON the farm, being available for work 24/7

Sounds like every mans dream... or at least every employers dream... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

That would be living ON the farm, eating ON the farm, being available for work 24/7

Sounds like every mans dream... or at least every employers dream... ;)

It used to be a reality. The "Family Farm" used to be a reality also. Very few of them left. Compared to how many there were in 1970, maybe 10% of them are still operating. At least in this area.

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The "Family Farm" used to be a reality also.

The key word being 'family'...

When are employers gonna learn that employees want a life too...

We don't work to make you happy, we work to make us happy... ;)

(Yeah, I know, how SELFISH of US, right?)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

The "Family Farm" used to be a reality also.

The key word being 'family'...

When are employers gonna learn that employees want a life too...

We don't work to make you happy, we work to make us happy... ;)

(Yeah, I know, how SELFISH of US, right?)

thumbs up!!!


When I see how today's "agronoms" only see the cost-efficiency, but not the agriculture anymore, it makes me just sad. And I don't wonder why food prises are rising...
With all the artificial fertilizers they could grow crop on cardboard instead of soil... to make it entirely industrial: even grow it in huge factory-like buildings, using similar "sun bulbs" like in animal farms ... maybe it's even done already?
What's done now is just pervert. It's a perversion of agriculture. Agriculture should be entirelly natural, imho.
Actually, I think that each field bigger than a big forest clearing is unnatural, the concentration on just a few sorts of each crop, vegetable or fruit is unnatural, the extensive use of chemicals and fertilizers... each barn where the cattle is fed with pellets and has to stand on concrete instead of feeding themself with fresh grass or so is unnatural, each row of tiny chicken-cages, the "sun" bulb in chicken farms, the animal transports.. I could run the list endlessly...

Lets say a farmer has 160 acres, instead of 16,000 acres. That is 4, 40 acre fields

If it were 8, 20 acre fields (which already is much too large for one single field, imho: 1 or 2 acres are more appropriate)... so this farmer easily could always use 7 of these fields and let one rest...
you can't squeeeze out the soil like a lemon without consequences...

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This thread is supposed to be about biofuels, and it has apparently been hijacked into a discussion of agribusiness. It is time to get back on topic.

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BOINC WIKI

This thread is supposed to be about biofuels, and it has apparently been hijacked into a discussion of agribusiness. It is time to get back on topic.

Uhmm... I dont want to question you.. but: isn't biofuels a product of agriculture, just like food for example? If so, then agriculture - or agribusiness as you call it - might be stíll on-topic in a general sense.. But I may be wrong.

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Account frozen...

This thread is supposed to be about biofuels, and it has apparently been hijacked into a discussion of agribusiness. It is time to get back on topic.

Uhmm... I dont want to question you.. but: isn't biofuels a product of agriculture, just like food for example? If so, then agriculture - or agribusiness as you call it - might be stíll on-topic in a general sense.. But I may be wrong.

Yes Biofuels and Agribusiness are related. However, the last 1/3 of the thread has not mentioned biofuels at all.

This is the end of this particular meta discussion as well, as it is off topic.

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BOINC WIKI

This thread is supposed to be about biofuels, and it has apparently been hijacked into a discussion of agribusiness. It is time to get back on topic.

Uhmm... I dont want to question you.. but: isn't biofuels a product of agriculture, just like food for example? If so, then agriculture - or agribusiness as you call it - might be stíll on-topic in a general sense.. But I may be wrong.

I was hoping to get points of view about the uses of Biofuels, not fertilizing and crop rotation. The farmers 2000 years ago rotated their crops because they HAD to not because they were so smart. I really think you should take Sniper up on his offer and learn about real life. JMO...

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Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!

Just a few notes on biofuels and food production. Ethanol is produced in the US from Corn. Just the starch is used in the corn and the rest winds up being distiller's grain which can be fed to cattle but is one third or so of the weight of the original bushel of corn and is deficient in Lysine (an essential amino acid). Corn is the start of the food chain here in the US for Beef, chicken, oils, pork etc.

Since the price of corn has doubled over recent years the price of meat has also gone up very significantly.. Since farmers now plant more corn instead of other grains --bread and other wheat products have also gone up.

Ethanol laced Gasoline or E85 has significantly less mileage potential since Ethanol has roughly half of the energy per gallon as does gasoline. It also collects water and cannot go through pipelines --hence a more severe delivery problem.. Also lots of diesel and other carbon derived energy is used to produce ethanol.

The average farm in Central Illinois was 380 acres. This is usually a "family" farm which may be a small corporation among a father a son or two and maybe an uncle --usually very few people due to the use of machinery and the ability to produce only so much income. Many farms are just the father --with a son and hired hand called in during certain times of the year.

Without chemicals and Hybridization yields would be miserable and bug infested.

Ethanol is not a good use for our food grain. In Brazil they have sugar cane which converts sugar to alcohol--a more direct route than corn starch. They also have lax labor laws.

Use of cellulose --switch grass may require developing new enzymes to produce the ethanol. Also growing switch grass would probably take a lot of acres away from corn and other food grains.

The solution in the long run will be hydrogen based fuel driven by nuclear energy. In the short run we need more exploration here in the US. More refineries and a ban on boutique fuels and ethanol for motor fuel.

In the past the US produced itself to prosperity and strength. I don't relish the idea of conserving ourselves into progress. We don't want to waste either; but we need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot by stopping policies that have created the current dependancy and shortages.

regards, to all.

Bill

Ethanol is not a good use for our food grain. In Brazil they have sugar cane which converts sugar to alcohol--a more direct route than corn starch. They also have lax labor laws.

With the drawback being the amount of amazon that they are cutting down to plant the sugar cane. The carbon being added to the atmosphere by slash and burn to clear the land for sugar cane for biofuels is offsetting the next 200 years of carbon savings by using sugar cane.

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BOINC WIKI

Just a few notes on biofuels and food production. Ethanol is produced in the US from Corn. Just the starch is used in the corn and the rest winds up being distiller's grain which can be fed to cattle but is one third or so of the weight of the original bushel of corn and is deficient in Lysine (an essential amino acid). Corn is the start of the food chain here in the US for Beef, chicken, oils, pork etc.

Since the price of corn has doubled over recent years the price of meat has also gone up very significantly.. Since farmers now plant more corn instead of other grains --bread and other wheat products have also gone up.

Ethanol laced Gasoline or E85 has significantly less mileage potential since Ethanol has roughly half of the energy per gallon as does gasoline. It also collects water and cannot go through pipelines --hence a more severe delivery problem.. Also lots of diesel and other carbon derived energy is used to produce ethanol.

The average farm in Central Illinois was 380 acres. This is usually a "family" farm which may be a small corporation among a father a son or two and maybe an uncle --usually very few people due to the use of machinery and the ability to produce only so much income. Many farms are just the father --with a son and hired hand called in during certain times of the year.

Without chemicals and Hybridization yields would be miserable and bug infested.

Ethanol is not a good use for our food grain. In Brazil they have sugar cane which converts sugar to alcohol--a more direct route than corn starch. They also have lax labor laws.

Use of cellulose --switch grass may require developing new enzymes to produce the ethanol. Also growing switch grass would probably take a lot of acres away from corn and other food grains.

The solution in the long run will be hydrogen based fuel driven by nuclear energy. In the short run we need more exploration here in the US. More refineries and a ban on boutique fuels and ethanol for motor fuel.

In the past the US produced itself to prosperity and strength. I don't relish the idea of conserving ourselves into progress. We don't want to waste either; but we need to stop shooting ourselves in the foot by stopping policies that have created the current dependancy and shortages.

regards, to all.

Bill

Now that was a good post, thanks now we are getting somewhere. Seems the Sugar cane production can seriously damage the envirement. There are so many things once considered impossible that we can do I believe more research will make Hydrogen cheaper and more usable.

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Official Abuser of Boinc Buttons...
And no good credit hound!