In California there are groups of people trying to get people to sign petitions to make Fuel stations have a higher percentage of Biofuels. Sounds great for the Air maybe but it is ruining probably the World Economy. Farmers will grow what they can get the most for and food isn't it. Alternative energy is great as long as it doesn't hurt those it is intended to help. We do need alternatives, just not at the cost of our food. There are already Wheat and Rice shortages amd more to come. I personally believe things are about to get much worse than most seem to realize. Time will tell.

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Same discuss here in Germany and Europe. Biofuel sounds good, but it isn´t.

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Same discuss here in Germany and Europe. Biofuel sounds good, but it isn´t.

I would bet if the World Governments put their resorces together, Hydrogen could be made cheaper. We need a better alternative than starving the poor.

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Hydrogen seems like less of a viable option due to the sheer volume of it that it would take to get equal distance from the vehicle as a tank of gas.

I heard on a radio show that for a hydrogen powered car to travel 200 miles ( 10 gallons of gasoline just as an example since some cars get far more mileage ) the tank for the Hydrogen would, all by itself, weigh 2000 pounds.

For a service station to have hydrogen available, it would take immense holding tanks.

Corn based ethanol doesn't seem to be a good solution. Unfortunately, everyone got on the corn bandwagon and almost completely dismissed other sources. Sawgrass would be a more efficient source, and wouldn't create the havoc with food prices that we are seeing with corn.

Another source that people aren't paying any attention to is sugar. Brazil uses sugar to make their ethanol. The new Farm Bill ( that President Bush has plans to veto ) has a provision that any sugar being imported into the United States has to go for ethanol production. The main reason for that is because when sugar is imported from Mexico, it has to be re-processed anyway.

We don't have enough ( as far as I know ) sugar growers out there to provide enough to make the needed amount of ethanol to completely remove us from foreign oil dependence, but last year, our company produced over 1 billion pounds of sugar. Seems to me, we could have gotten a lot of ethanol out of that.

Not to mention that, if the sugar is going for ethanol, it doesn't have to go through our entire process, AND it would be pretty doggone easy to store.

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Hydrogen seems like less of a viable option due to the sheer volume of it that it would take to get equal distance from the vehicle as a tank of gas.

I heard on a radio show that for a hydrogen powered car to travel 200 miles ( 10 gallons of gasoline just as an example since some cars get far more mileage ) the tank for the Hydrogen would, all by itself, weigh 2000 pounds.

For a service station to have hydrogen available, it would take immense holding tanks.

Corn based ethanol doesn't seem to be a good solution. Unfortunately, everyone got on the corn bandwagon and almost completely dismissed other sources. Sawgrass would be a more efficient source, and wouldn't create the havoc with food prices that we are seeing with corn.

Another source that people aren't paying any attention to is sugar. Brazil uses sugar to make their ethanol. The new Farm Bill ( that President Bush has plans to veto ) has a provision that any sugar being imported into the United States has to go for ethanol production. The main reason for that is because when sugar is imported from Mexico, it has to be re-processed anyway.

We don't have enough ( as far as I know ) sugar growers out there to provide enough to make the needed amount of ethanol to completely remove us from foreign oil dependence, but last year, our company produced over 1 billion pounds of sugar. Seems to me, we could have gotten a lot of ethanol out of that.

Not to mention that, if the sugar is going for ethanol, it doesn't have to go through our entire process, AND it would be pretty doggone easy to store.

I was hoping to get some good input both ways. Seems good but the main problem being is that whatever they grow Farmers will tend to grow for the higher dollar and it seems biofuels will always fetch that. It would be unfair for farmers to be told what they can and can not grow. But your idea of using Imported sugar would be good for us...But the biofuel problem is happening all over the World. Kind of like a Palm Wax I sell, all over indonesia farmers have quit growing food to supply the Palm Wax industry because there is more money in it. Whole islands are being stripped of natural vegetation to grow Palm trees. I surely wish I knew an answer....but maybe talking about it will help somehow....

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Hydrogen seems like less of a viable option due to the sheer volume of it that it would take to get equal distance from the vehicle as a tank of gas.

I heard on a radio show that for a hydrogen powered car to travel 200 miles ( 10 gallons of gasoline just as an example since some cars get far more mileage ) the tank for the Hydrogen would, all by itself, weigh 2000 pounds.

For a service station to have hydrogen available, it would take immense holding tanks.

Hmmm, that one seems a bit out there...Cherolet has some test vehicles being driven today in normal situations by normal people I believe one of their tests is in San Francisco and those cars get around 200 miles a fillup. couldn't find the article but this is their new car...


Equinox

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Never mind me

Hydrogen seems like less of a viable option due to the sheer volume of it that it would take to get equal distance from the vehicle as a tank of gas.

I heard on a radio show that for a hydrogen powered car to travel 200 miles ( 10 gallons of gasoline just as an example since some cars get far more mileage ) the tank for the Hydrogen would, all by itself, weigh 2000 pounds.

For a service station to have hydrogen available, it would take immense holding tanks.

Hmmm, that one seems a bit out there...Cherolet has some test vehicles being driven today in normal situations by normal people I believe one of their tests is in San Francisco and those cars get around 200 miles a fillup. couldn't find the article but this is their new car...


Equinox

The Equinox is an electric vehicle powered by a hydrogen fuel cell. Quite different than a hydrogen fueled internal combustion powered vehicle.

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Hydrogen seems like less of a viable option due to the sheer volume of it that it would take to get equal distance from the vehicle as a tank of gas.

I heard on a radio show that for a hydrogen powered car to travel 200 miles ( 10 gallons of gasoline just as an example since some cars get far more mileage ) the tank for the Hydrogen would, all by itself, weigh 2000 pounds.

For a service station to have hydrogen available, it would take immense holding tanks.

Hmmm, that one seems a bit out there...Cherolet has some test vehicles being driven today in normal situations by normal people I believe one of their tests is in San Francisco and those cars get around 200 miles a fillup. couldn't find the article but this is their new car...


Equinox

The Equinox is an electric vehicle powered by a hydrogen fuel cell. Quite different than a hydrogen fueled internal combustion powered vehicle.

And it only spits out water...If the technology can be figured out it is the way to go. More money should be going to research, just a few years ago a guy invented a Valve that pretty much cut the costs of Deslinization in half. Seems when faced with an important challenge we always prevail...I am just afraid too many are looking the wrong direction...For an easy fix.

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I'd be happy if they'd do away with the 89 mid-grade gasoline and put those resources into 87 unleaded.

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me@rescam.org

There is nothing wrong with the basic concept of biofuels......
The problem is that we should be using waste materials or non-food crops such as switchgrass (which can be grown on acreage unsuitable for food crops) for the feedstock rather than corrupting our food chain by putting some of our primary food sources into our gastanks.....

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"Freedom is just Chaos, with better lighting." Alan Dean Foster

In California there are groups of people trying to get people to sign petitions to make Fuel stations have a higher percentage of Biofuels. Sounds great for the Air maybe but it is ruining probably the World Economy. Farmers will grow what they can get the most for and food isn't it. Alternative energy is great as long as it doesn't hurt those it is intended to help. We do need alternatives, just not at the cost of our food. There are already Wheat and Rice shortages amd more to come. I personally believe things are about to get much worse than most seem to realize. Time will tell.

Supply and demand mandate what the farmers do. (I have farmed most of my life.) Food products (vegetables) are generally the most profitable for farmers. The fact that more really large farms are going to be planting corn, instead of oats or wheat, (not an extreme amount of rice grown in the USA anyway). One Government website here shows the number of acres of different agricultural crops(not necessarily food crops) grown in 2000. Rice was at the bottom of the list, even then, with an area of something like 69 miles X 69 miles of rice being grown in the US.

There is also the US Govt program that pays farmers to leave cropland unplanted. Billions of $$ each year go out in farm subsidies to lots of huge farms, for simply leaving the ground fallow. (Wish I had enough acreage to qualify). I imagine the next foolish thing they will do, is start paying subsidies to these same farms for growing switchgrass.

I looked in the grocery store last week, and the price for a gallon of vegetable oil was $16. At that rate, nobody is going to be doing much biodiesel production, because the price of the vegetable oil is going to be counterproductive.

As far as switchgrass, there are alternatives, that would work just as well. There are millions of acres of dead pine in this country, due to the pine shoot beetle. Harvesting those trees and pelletizing the wood, (which is useless for lumber according to the local loggers), would be good for the forests, good for the economy, and take some of the profit out of the agricultural biofuels production so that the farmers will grow whatever is next in line for profitability.

Sorry for ranting,

Mark

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There is nothing wrong with the basic concept of biofuels......
The problem is that we should be using waste materials or non-food crops such as switchgrass (which can be grown on acreage unsuitable for food crops) for the feedstock rather than corrupting our food chain by putting some of our primary food sources into our gastanks.....

I agree that the "concept" of biofuels isn't flawed since it basically entails producing fuel from a renewable resource...but the big problem isn't the ingredients, but rather then final product.

1. Biofuels cost more to produce than fossil fuels. Sure, they're immeasurably better for the environment, but realistically, only an alternative for the wealthy.

2. Biofuels aren't as efficient as fossil fuels. This drives the end cost even higher since larger quantities of an already more expensive fuel are needed to accomplish the same amount of work currently performed by fossil fuels.

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I wonder if anyone has considered using Kudzu as a biofuel source.

From what I've heard, it is almost impossible to get rid of once it is established.

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Wow, I am impressed, some really good points my views have changed a bit. I like the sawgrass and the pines, seems there could be lots of good solutions out there. Would sure like to here more, as I will take the best and forward them to my Congress People. It has to start somewhere. Thanks!

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In California there are groups of people trying to get people to sign petitions to make Fuel stations have a higher percentage of Biofuels. Sounds great for the Air maybe but it is ruining probably the World Economy. Farmers will grow what they can get the most for and food isn't it. Alternative energy is great as long as it doesn't hurt those it is intended to help. We do need alternatives, just not at the cost of our food. There are already Wheat and Rice shortages amd more to come. I personally believe things are about to get much worse than most seem to realize. Time will tell.

Supply and demand mandate what the farmers do. (I have farmed most of my life.) Food products (vegetables) are generally the most profitable for farmers. The fact that more really large farms are going to be planting corn, instead of oats or wheat, (not an extreme amount of rice grown in the USA anyway). One Government website here shows the number of acres of different agricultural crops(not necessarily food crops) grown in 2000. Rice was at the bottom of the list, even then, with an area of something like 69 miles X 69 miles of rice being grown in the US.

There is also the US Govt program that pays farmers to leave cropland unplanted. Billions of $$ each year go out in farm subsidies to lots of huge farms, for simply leaving the ground fallow. (Wish I had enough acreage to qualify). I imagine the next foolish thing they will do, is start paying subsidies to these same farms for growing switchgrass.

I looked in the grocery store last week, and the price for a gallon of vegetable oil was $16. At that rate, nobody is going to be doing much biodiesel production, because the price of the vegetable oil is going to be counterproductive.

As far as switchgrass, there are alternatives, that would work just as well. There are millions of acres of dead pine in this country, due to the pine shoot beetle. Harvesting those trees and pelletizing the wood, (which is useless for lumber according to the local loggers), would be good for the forests, good for the economy, and take some of the profit out of the agricultural biofuels production so that the farmers will grow whatever is next in line for profitability.

Sorry for ranting,

Mark

Not ranting at all, I know someone in Montana that is paid not to grow...I bet he wouldn't mind growing sawgrass or something if the subsidies quit.

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If only the hot air we find on the S@H forums could be used as fuel. ;)

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Capitalize on this good fortune, one word can bring you round ... changes.

Not ranting at all, I know someone in Montana that is paid not to grow...I bet he wouldn't mind growing sawgrass or something if the subsidies quit.

The farm subsidy was originally supposed to be a very short term thing, to help bring up the price of commodities such as corn, so that the farmers could survive. Look where we are now.

The small, family farm, is nearly a thing of the past. Large corporations have taken over, or urban sprawl has pushed them out. Concrete and pavement don't grow very good crops.

ET had better get his little green butt in gear and get here quick and solve all of our problems for us, because we are flailing in the water.

As for Kudzu, I just read a little about it. Very invasive species, nearly immune to herbicides, nearly impossible to eradicate. Not much literature available about it's use as a fuel source. Considered a noxious weed by the Govt.

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Biofuels cost more to produce than fossil fuels.

Give it another week... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I plugged kudzu as biofuel into google and got a load of hits, one of which was:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=202385

So some folks are thinking along those lines. :-)

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