If we are to treat minors as adults for criminal acts, why not treat them as adults in other walks of life? Let them drive cars, buy alcohol, bear arms (in the US at least), fight for their country, get married, vote ...

You have got to be kidding, Bobby.

None of those things you just mentioned are in any way similar to committing a crime of the magnitude of what was done to Blurf.

Are you saying " What the hell...let's allow these kids to go out and commit murder....it's nothing different than allowing them to drive "?

Are you saying that we, as a society, cannot ( or should not ) show the kids that doing such things as what happened to Blurf, will have consequences other than some counseling??

That is patently absurd. One of the main problems with the children in this country ( in my opinion only ) is that, ever since people have started to link some form of abuse ( mental, physical, whatever ) to some of the things these kids have been doing, there has been a serious problem of parents being able ( or willing ) to discipline their children.

Send them to " Time Out "....what a joke.

Ever walk through a mall and see the parents with out of control children saying " No....don't do that...if you keep doing that you are going to get a time out when we get home...." over and OVER AND OVER again??

Ask those same parents about spanking a child and you'll hear " Well we don't believe in spanking..."

Hell....you can't even raise your voice to a child without someone shouting from the rooftops that you are abusing them.

Lemme tell you something....I was VERY ABUSED as a child....but guess what...I still know right from wrong.

I was physically AND emotionally abused...but I think I turned out pretty doggone well. I'm not a serial killer ( although according to all the talking heads I should be ), I have never committed a crime more serious than speeding, and I am not verbally or physically abusive toward a woman in any relationship I have ever been in, and although my daughter did get spanked ( OMG SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE ) when she did something seriously wrong, she is a very intelligent child with a very strong sense of what is right.

Like I have stated earlier in this thread...the whole " blame it on something else so that it's not really MY fault " crap is getting so old as to be utterly ridiculous.

Do not misunderstand me on this. I know ( all TOO WELL ) that there are people who take " discipline " too far. I have been there.

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Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Are you saying that we, as a society, cannot ( or should not ) show the kids that doing such things as what happened to Blurf, will have consequences other than some counseling??

Please know that violent juvenile offenders are in jail too. They don't just "get some counseling". We used to have a neighbor (Chuck) who was a teacher in juvenile hall. He always had very good attendance in his classes - his students couldn't leave!

I do not know what the maximum amount of jail time for juveniles is, but I'm quite sure I would not want to be in jail at all, at any age.

Chuck, by the way, always came off as a very calm and level-headed guy. He chose to teach in a jail setting because he wanted to "make a difference". I was always comforted to know that the messed-up kids he taught had the benefit of being taught by somebody who cared about his charges.

Juveniles should be tried as adults. But whatever the punishment is, it should not be the death penalty, I find it amazing that people want juveniles hanged, it just isn't right. Come on...... Kids?

They should be served with an equivalent punishment.

In New Zealand, the death penalty doesn't exist. And I'm thankful for it....

Just my Two cents...

Luke.

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- Luke.

Are you saying that we, as a society, cannot ( or should not ) show the kids that doing such things as what happened to Blurf, will have consequences other than some counseling??

Please know that violent juvenile offenders are in jail too. They don't just "get some counseling". We used to have a neighbor (Chuck) who was a teacher in juvenile hall. He always had very good attendance in his classes - his students couldn't leave!

I do not know what the maximum amount of jail time for juveniles is, but I'm quite sure I would not want to be in jail at all, at any age.

Chuck, by the way, always came off as a very calm and level-headed guy. He chose to teach in a jail setting because he wanted to "make a difference". I was always comforted to know that the messed-up kids he taught had the benefit of being taught by somebody who cared about his charges.

One thing that I will say is that the only thing putting them in jail does is make them a little smarter about how to commit their crimes.

In some cases, the kid may learn their lesson, but in most, they just talk to the other inmates about how not to get caught next time. OH!!! And blame " society " for their crimes.

Just some info here...In Michigan...a juvenile can be sentenced to life imprisonment if their crime is deemed violent enough to warrant it.

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

One thing that I will say is that the only thing putting them in jail does is make them a little smarter about how to commit their crimes.

In some cases, the kid may learn their lesson, but in most, they just talk to the other inmates about how not to get caught next time. OH!!! And blame " society " for their crimes.

These children (and they are children) are a product of our society. If they have little positive investment in that society then something has gone wrong somewhere. I believe there is a difference between 'blaming society' and trying to understand why these children/juveniles behave the way they do. Until we do, then it is difficult to know how to make things better.

Just some info here...In Michigan...a juvenile can be sentenced to life imprisonment if their crime is deemed violent enough to warrant it.

Yes, I was shocked at the statistics shown in an earlier post I made that linked to the Human Rights report showing young offenders who had been jailed for life.

Are you saying that we, as a society, cannot ( or should not ) show the kids that doing such things as what happened to Blurf, will have consequences other than some counseling??

Please know that violent juvenile offenders are in jail too. They don't just "get some counseling". We used to have a neighbor (Chuck) who was a teacher in juvenile hall. He always had very good attendance in his classes - his students couldn't leave!

I do not know what the maximum amount of jail time for juveniles is, but I'm quite sure I would not want to be in jail at all, at any age.

Chuck, by the way, always came off as a very calm and level-headed guy. He chose to teach in a jail setting because he wanted to "make a difference". I was always comforted to know that the messed-up kids he taught had the benefit of being taught by somebody who cared about his charges.

One thing that I will say is that the only thing putting them in jail does is make them a little smarter about how to commit their crimes.

In some cases, the kid may learn their lesson, but in most, they just talk to the other inmates about how not to get caught next time. OH!!! And blame " society " for their crimes.

Just some info here...In Michigan...a juvenile can be sentenced to life imprisonment if their crime is deemed violent enough to warrant it.

I can completely agree with you at this point.
Just anything but death penalty is fine. As per my earlier post.

Best Regards,
Luke.

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- Luke.

...SNIP....
Are you saying that we, as a society, cannot ( or should not ) show the kids that doing such things as what happened to Blurf, will have consequences other than some counseling??

That is patently absurd. One of the main problems with the children in this country ( in my opinion only ) is that, ever since people have started to link some form of abuse ( mental, physical, whatever ) to some of the things these kids have been doing, there has been a serious problem of parents being able ( or willing ) to discipline their children.

Send them to " Time Out "....what a joke....

SNIP...

I don't think we should use what happened to Blurf as a beacon around which we coalesce our anxieties about young people in our society.

What Blurf faced should not have happened.

Every bad act should be met with a clear message that we will not tollerate destructive behaiviour and that we are prepared to remove freedom from those who harm or take from others.

Would I treat a child who commits a crime in the same way I would treat an adult who committed the same crime... I wouldn't.

Would I treat a person with mental health problems that committed a crime the same as a person with all their mental faculties.. No.


Should we try juveniles as adults??? In my mind never.

That does not mean that a juvenile should not suffer the consequences of their actions or feel the full force of society but for me we have a different responsibility towards them and need to treat young people in a slightly different way.


I too often see people blaming children or their parents but as far as I am concerned children belong to society (all of us) not just their parents.

I believe we have a duty to young people.


Sometimes we have to force correction upon them.... but we can not treat young people the same way we treat adults... if we do we risk damaging them forever given children's brains, hormones and bodies are different.

No excuses. Young people are different... It's a life fact.


If they harm others they should be dealt with in a direct manner but in a way that has the greatest chance of reforming them or altering their behaiviour relative to their abilities.


I have no problem with retaining young people but lets not allow our care or support for Blurf to over-ride our judgement of what would be best for our society.

.


This issue is for Blurf to deal with.

Accademic arguement is something for another day maybe!


@Blurf

One of the suspects said in the interrogation that "a cripple is an easy mark. How could I turn down the chance?"

That is such a vile and unacceptable attitude.

.


Blurf - Know that to us you are valued.



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If we are to treat minors as adults for criminal acts, why not treat them as adults in other walks of life? Let them drive cars, buy alcohol, bear arms (in the US at least), fight for their country, get married, vote ...

I have to agree with you about this comment KM. In my opinion, this is just another example of what's wrong with liberalism and "patently absurd" doesn't even begin to describe the content of the above quote.

I mean, I thought it was obvious why we didn't want a bunch of drunk teenagers driving around town with a car load of guns and ammunition...

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If we are to treat minors as adults for criminal acts, why not treat them as adults in other walks of life? Let them drive cars, buy alcohol, bear arms (in the US at least), fight for their country, get married, vote ...

I have to agree with you about this comment KM. In my opinion, this is just another example of what's wrong with liberalism and "patently absurd" doesn't even begin to describe the content of the above quote.

I mean, I thought it was obvious why we didn't want a bunch of drunk teenagers driving around town with a car load of guns and ammunition...

Yes it is obvious..because teenagers lack judgement...so if you judge that they are not mature enough to be allowed to do these things..then why would you think they are mature enough to be tried as an adult?

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Reality Internet Personality

KM mentioned spanking...

Do I believe in spanking as a punishment? Hell, NO! Do I believe that such treatment can rather cause criminal deeds? Not really - though it's more likely that kids become criminal who had been physically abused than kids with loving parents who never beat or spank them.

Having been BEATEN as a child and juvenile as a punishment, for example for not having done homework yet when my parents came home two hours later than me; or as a punishment for trouble in school both because I was beaten up by other pupils and did not defend myself ('cause they were older and stronger or more than I could handle), and because I was beaten up by other pupils and did defend myself; or for coming home later than expected from being at my grandparents or at friends known to my parents...
Such really minor stuff already caused a beating...
My mother stopped spanking me with her hand when I was 5, from that age on she used either a belt, or a carpet beater, or her clogs to "spank" me because she thought that punishing me should not hurt herself...
My father on the other hand did only hit me one time as far as I remember: It was a slap in the face when I was 15 or so, and when my nose was bleeding (it bleeded at each opportunity which raised my blood pressure at that time) he thought it was directly caused by that slap and begged my pardon.
The only thing they reached was that I swore that if ever I had children they would get a better treatment from me than I got from my parents, that I would be a better parent to my kids than my parents were to me.

Even when my stepson came home after having done some serious trouble shortly before his 18th birthday I did not spank him. I dragged him into his room, and actually spoke with him, discussed with him, to touch his conscience despite he was drunk - three days he did avoid me, then he came to me shamefully, excused for his behavior, and asked me why I did not just beat the hell out of him the other day. By this reaction he showed imho that the lesson I gave him had worked better than a beating which would've been shrugged off after the blessures healed.
Has my ex-wife (his mother) ever spanked her kids? I know of two times, both out of utter helplessness, followed by excusing...
Has his father spanked his kids? When you count a similar treatment into "spanking" like I got as a child, then yes, but let's rather say his belt danced on the backs of both his kids and their mother regularly on a daily base. Is that Physical Abuse? YES.

Sorry KM, but in my opinion no minor trouble caused by kids and juveniles deserve a spanking. But on the other hand, when they commit a crime they deserve a trial and have to go with the punishment the judge decided. But I think since kids and juveniles are influenced by their surroundings, parents have to work twice as hard to make their kids not being influenced by the wrong people, and to teach their kids to know right from wrong and to remain on the right way. So when kids and juveniles commit a crime (even less than what happened to Blurf), it's not just the crime of them, but also a sign that their parents have failed badly - and that's why I think they should also get a punishment.

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Sorry KM, but in my opinion no minor trouble caused by kids and juveniles deserve a spanking. But on the other hand, when they commit a crime they deserve a trial and have to go with the punishment the judge decided. But I think since kids and juveniles are influenced by their surroundings, parents have to work twice as hard to make their kids not being influenced by the wrong people, and to teach their kids to know right from wrong and to remain on the right way. So when kids and juveniles commit a crime (even less than what happened to Blurf), it's not just the crime of them, but also a sign that their parents have failed badly - and that's why I think they should also get a punishment.

Thorin...

What you seem to have missed in my post about spanking is that I know there are people who take things way too far. I was in the same situation you were as far as " corporal punishment " goes.

There is a very fine line between " punishment " and abuse. I know that line very well.

I also said that I had spanked my daughter. Did I abuse her when I did it?? Nope. Wanna know WHY it wasn't abuse? Because it wasn't used regularly as a form of discipline. From the day she was born, until she turned ten, she got spanked exactly twice. I will not get into what she did, but I will say that she had done the same thing more than once, and after I spanked her, she never did it again.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with spanking a child if it isn't done for minor infractions. Trust me, 99.999% of the time, all I had to do was say my daughter's name in a certain tone, or look at her in a certain way, and she knew that she messed up. That, in and of itself, was normally enough punishment to get my point across.

I agree with you about, having gone through the same type of abuse as you, making a promise to myself about not being like my parents and relatives. Not being abusive. When my daughter was born, I made the same promise. I also resolved to speak to her on a little bit higher level when she did something wrong, so that she would know WHY it was wrong.

Of course, when Danielle was learning to read, while her mother had her learning Dick and Jane stuff, I was the guy who had Danielle on my lap teaching her words from whatever I was reading at the time...lol

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
from silent stone,
Death is preordained

Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Sorry KM, but in my opinion no minor trouble caused by kids and juveniles deserve a spanking. But on the other hand, when they commit a crime they deserve a trial and have to go with the punishment the judge decided. But I think since kids and juveniles are influenced by their surroundings, parents have to work twice as hard to make their kids not being influenced by the wrong people, and to teach their kids to know right from wrong and to remain on the right way. So when kids and juveniles commit a crime (even less than what happened to Blurf), it's not just the crime of them, but also a sign that their parents have failed badly - and that's why I think they should also get a punishment.

Thorin...

What you seem to have missed in my post about spanking is that I know there are people who take things way too far. I was in the same situation you were as far as " corporal punishment " goes.

There is a very fine line between " punishment " and abuse. I know that line very well.

I also said that I had spanked my daughter. Did I abuse her when I did it?? Nope. Wanna know WHY it wasn't abuse? Because it wasn't used regularly as a form of discipline. From the day she was born, until she turned ten, she got spanked exactly twice. I will not get into what she did, but I will say that she had done the same thing more than once, and after I spanked her, she never did it again.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with spanking a child if it isn't done for minor infractions. Trust me, 99.999% of the time, all I had to do was say my daughter's name in a certain tone, or look at her in a certain way, and she knew that she messed up. That, in and of itself, was normally enough punishment to get my point across.

I agree with you about, having gone through the same type of abuse as you, making a promise to myself about not being like my parents and relatives. Not being abusive. When my daughter was born, I made the same promise. I also resolved to speak to her on a little bit higher level when she did something wrong, so that she would know WHY it was wrong.

Of course, when Danielle was learning to read, while her mother had her learning Dick and Jane stuff, I was the guy who had Danielle on my lap teaching her words from whatever I was reading at the time...lol

Sorry, I have to admit I missed some of your point. But what you said was so triggering I had to blurt out what I posted. No pun or judging against you was intended

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Sorry, I have to admit I missed some of your point. But what you said was so triggering I had to blurt out what I posted. No pun or judging against you was intended

No worries Thorin. I didn't take it as a judgement....lol

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Air Cold, the blade stops;
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Calm Chaos Forums : Everyone Welcome

Trust me, 99.999% of the time, all I had to do was say my daughter's name in a certain tone, or look at her in a certain way, and she knew that she messed up.

Wearing a robe and holding a scythe probably didn't hurt either!

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Daniel

...so if you judge that they are not mature enough to be allowed to do these things..then why would you think they are mature enough to be tried as an adult?

The severity of the crime coupled with the physical state of their victim. This wasn't a case of bad judgment, it was the intentional targeting of "easy prey". The kids seemingly have admitted that's what they were doing and you've produced no evidence to support the "bravado" theory other than your own personal experience with other children.

Let's face it, they didn't get caught driving drunk or in possession of a gun...they beat a crippled man, and I think they should be punished, not rehabilitated. We just need to change what's deemed cruel and unusual. I'd certainly take a caning over jail if given the choice...

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The severity of the crime coupled with the physical state of their victim. This wasn't a case of bad judgment, it was the intentional targeting of "easy prey". The kids seemingly have admitted that's what they were doing and you've produced no evidence to support the "bravado" theory other than your own personal experience with other children.

...as a professional trained to deal with this age group.

Let's face it, they didn't get caught with a bag of weed...they beat a crippled man, and I think they should be punished, not rehabilitated. We just need to change what's deemed cruel and unusual. I'd certainly take a caning over jail if given the choice...

They should be punished..no one is disagreeing with that. But they should be tried and punished as children..because they are children. The severity of the crime does not change that fact.

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Reality Internet Personality

The severity of the crime coupled with the physical state of their victim. This wasn't a case of bad judgment, it was the intentional targeting of "easy prey". The kids seemingly have admitted that's what they were doing and you've produced no evidence to support the "bravado" theory other than your own personal experience with other children.

...as a professional trained to deal with this age group.

Pardon me...

So you provide an "expert opinion"...maybe even some statical data. Still doesn't prove that's the case in this particular instance, while the prosecution still has a confession.

Let's face it, they didn't get caught with a bag of weed...they beat a crippled man, and I think they should be punished, not rehabilitated. We just need to change what's deemed cruel and unusual. I'd certainly take a caning over jail if given the choice...

They should be punished..no one is disagreeing with that. But they should be tried and punished as children..because they are children. The severity of the crime does not change that fact.

And their age doesn't change the severity of the crime or the potential threat they pose to society at large.

We have separate facilities here for children...while they are not behind bars 24 hours a day, they are removed from their homes, society, and life as they "knew" it.

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The severity of the crime coupled with the physical state of their victim. This wasn't a case of bad judgment, it was the intentional targeting of "easy prey". The kids seemingly have admitted that's what they were doing and you've produced no evidence to support the "bravado" theory other than your own personal experience with other children.

...as a professional trained to deal with this age group.

Pardon me...

So you provide an "expert opinion"...maybe even some statical data. Still doesn't prove that's the case in this particular instance, while the prosecution still has a confession.

Let's face it, they didn't get caught with a bag of weed...they beat a crippled man, and I think they should be punished, not rehabilitated. We just need to change what's deemed cruel and unusual. I'd certainly take a caning over jail if given the choice...

They should be punished..no one is disagreeing with that. But they should be tried and punished as children..because they are children. The severity of the crime does not change that fact.

And their age doesn't change the severity of the crime or the potential threat they pose to society at large.

We have separate facilities here for children...while they are not behind bars 24 hours a day, they are removed from their homes, society, and life as they "knew" it.

So we are in agreement then. They should not be treated as adults.

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Reality Internet Personality

The severity of the crime coupled with the physical state of their victim. This wasn't a case of bad judgment, it was the intentional targeting of "easy prey". The kids seemingly have admitted that's what they were doing and you've produced no evidence to support the "bravado" theory other than your own personal experience with other children.

...as a professional trained to deal with this age group.

Pardon me...

So you provide an "expert opinion"...maybe even some statical data. Still doesn't prove that's the case in this particular instance, while the prosecution still has a confession.

Let's face it, they didn't get caught with a bag of weed...they beat a crippled man, and I think they should be punished, not rehabilitated. We just need to change what's deemed cruel and unusual. I'd certainly take a caning over jail if given the choice...

They should be punished..no one is disagreeing with that. But they should be tried and punished as children..because they are children. The severity of the crime does not change that fact.

And their age doesn't change the severity of the crime or the potential threat they pose to society at large.

We have separate facilities here for children...while they are not behind bars 24 hours a day, they are removed from their homes, society, and life as they "knew" it.

So we are in agreement then. They should not be treated as adults.

No where did I state they should be treated any differently than any other individual guilty of committing a violent crime. They should be punished for their actions, and as a society, we have deemed removal from that society, for a period of time in most cases, to be a fitting punishment regardless of said convict being held in a maximum or minimum security facility...

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Back in August 2006, while I was walking down a street eating lunch, a teen-ager with two accomplices stuck a pistol to my head and demanded that I empty my pockets. Luckily I had thought never to carry my cards with me unless I actually needed them, and didn't think about the housekey. I did have about $55 with me and that seemed to satisfy him rather quickly. I do carry emergency money like this which increases the chances that the robber be satisfied and not to shoot me. I also lost a pepper-spray canister, but what the heck? Chances are, the mother of this kid has about six children, all with different fathers, is big and fat, had her first kid at fifteen or so and never finished high school. Probably most or all involved have something to do with illegal drugs. So if it's not parental abuse, it's probably neglect that allows the kids to join other kids and be bad. Maybe those kids had already found girls and gotten them pregnant.

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