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United States of Europe (Federal Europe)
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James Martin Send message Joined: 27 Jun 06 Posts: 223 Credit: 62,205 RAC: 0 |
Check out this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Europe ..its a reference in the encyclopedia to a potential "United States of Europe" which may possibly come about in the future. What do people think to it? |
Jens Send message Joined: 8 Jun 99 Posts: 51 Credit: 153,539 RAC: 0 |
I think we're quite far away from a European Federation as for now. If you followed the news, you know, that we couldn't even agree on a constitution. But considering the huge impact the EC already have on the national legal and political systems, I'm not sure, if a federation would bring many further advantages. Of course - there wouldn't be problems of states failing to transfer EC-directives in time and certainly some other pros as well. But as for now I think it's good the way it is. Plus I don't think, that many countries would like to de-facto lose their identity. And that probably would be the result of a European Federation. Take Germany for example - it's a federal state. But except for maybe Bavaria you don't see too big differences anymore. Well....that's the layman's point of view :) Best regards Jens |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
I agree, Jens. But I go even further in my point of view. Not only that I think that the EC has a too huge impact on the national legal, political and economical systems of the EU countries, I think even the introduction of the Euro as a common currency came way too early, like putting the cart before the horse. In my opinion, the countries better should have been given the possibility to reach a similar economic level before even thinking about such a thing as founding the EU (even though it had developed out of the ECSC which I think already was a mistake in itself). I think the Euro and the EC should be disestablished asap, giving the current members their sovereignty and their own currencies back - with the option to re-establish the EU, IF all citizens of all European countries express their wish to be united that way with a referendum. What advantage has come since the EU for the average person anyway? None. Quite the opposite. Even the introduction of the Euro had a huge disadvantage: when the Euro became official currency, it meant an almost 100% inflation (at least in Germany), because all prizes had the same digits like in DM but in Euro instead (with € 1 = DM 1,9588, so that a thing that did cost 1 DM the day before did cost 1 Euro then), while all wages and social welfare incomes had been cut in half according to that exchange rate. Account frozen... |
bobby Send message Joined: 22 Mar 02 Posts: 2866 Credit: 17,789,109 RAC: 3 |
You mean aside from the longest period in the last 5 centuries without any of the member states being at war with another? Or aside from being able to work anywhere within the EU's borders? Or aside from the removal of currency exchange costs when going from one (Euro) member state to another on vacation? I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that ... |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
You don't need to give up sovereignty to live in peace with each other. Or aside from being able to work anywhere within the EU's borders? I don't care about the possibility to work in foreign countries. And to me (as a German), France, Spain, Italy etc are as foreign countries as for example the USA or let's say Kuwait or China. There is a possibility to get a job even there if you have the right qualification and are interested enough to leave your home country to work there. I do not feel as a European. I feel (first hand) as a human being living on Earth, and (second) as a German - but because of culture and language (and heritage), and not because of the country. Or aside from the removal of currency exchange costs when going from one (Euro) member state to another on vacation? The exchange costs never have been that high that average people did care. Just a few percent. Only the rich ones and those traitors in the management of the big companies ever made a fuss out of it. Account frozen... |
Sirius B Send message Joined: 26 Dec 00 Posts: 24881 Credit: 3,081,182 RAC: 7 |
But what about large scale corruption within the EU commission itself? Personally, I think it will be the biggest mistake ever made! |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
But what about large scale corruption within the EU commission itself? Have you ever seen a government without corruption? Or a commission which was not corrupt? Such things always happen because their members are always chosen poorly. Account frozen... |
Jens Send message Joined: 8 Jun 99 Posts: 51 Credit: 153,539 RAC: 0 |
But I go even further in my point of view. Not only that I think that the EC has a too huge impact on the national legal, political and economical systems of the EU countries... I don't know, if I want to agree here. Sure, the EC do have a huge impact, but you sound like you think this is entirely bad. And I'm not sure, if it really is. Many problems, that have to be solved in the future (be it the change of climate, shortages of food and water, etc.) can only be solved on a global basis. Therefore I think, that an institution like the EU can be quite useful in setting equal (high) standards, that its members have to comply to. I don't know, if the environmental problems (in Europe) could be handled completely without the EU. Of course reasonable thinking in theory would be enough, but that's exactly what many countries are lacking - including Germany. (Now of course you might argue, that the EU also doesn't offer anything more than compromises, based on the unreasonable thinking of its members. That's certainly right, but better you have to work out a compromise, than not even have to think about it) Well and as for the possibility to just move to another country to work there - I think that's nice as well. Gives you a lot of opportunities. But of course I have to agree to your statement about the introduction of the Euro. Best regards Jens |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
I think the EU economy has made more damage to our environment than was made before the EU was founded. Now, if you're buying a cup of yoghurt for example: from producing the cups to printing, filling and closing them, these cups and their contents are carried three times across entire Europe until they reach the shops. Is this good for the environment? But it is EU standard. Or why does Germany have to import meat whilst being told to close the own animal farms down? Most of the diaries, animal farms and acres in Germany have been closed down because the EU commission said so! This would not be possible if the EU were disestablished, the borders closed, and import/export meant paying fees again. I think all food (except fruits and vegetable that can't be grown there) should be produced or grown in the areas where it is sold. THIS would be good for the environment. And what about those exaggerated EU standards which even include the size, weight, roundness of "acceptable" fruits and vegetables? Hundreds of naturally grown sorts do not meet those crappy standards set up by these wannabe-experts in Brussels, and cannot be sold - despite having much more vitamins than those from the green-house that meet those standards. Hell, even the strict DIN/ASA standards used for industrial products throughout Europe look like being no standard at all, compared to the standards set by the EU know-it-alls. Or look at that commuting of workers throughout europe: A lot of people come to work here - okay, why not (though it would be better if we hadn't so many unemployed people ourselves). But at the same time the companies in THEIR countries are offering jobs and dare to ask OUR employment centers to send them workers! Hallo? Why don't they take workers from their own country at first? There are enough unemployed but qualified people in these countries, too! Grrrrr I could go on like that endlessly. But I'd rather stop here to let off fume elsewhere. Account frozen... |
Brian Silvers Send message Joined: 11 Jun 99 Posts: 1681 Credit: 492,052 RAC: 0 |
But at the same time the companies in THEIR countries are offering jobs and dare to ask OUR employment centers to send them workers! Hallo? Why don't they take workers from their own country at first? There are enough unemployed but qualified people in these countries, too! ...because, at least speaking in terms of the H1-B worker here in the United States, "you" (general sense) are much "cheaper". The company does not have to pay the employer side of the Social Security system fees (currently 7.65%), nor do they have to pay for benefits (vacation, health insurance, matching retirement funds, worker's compensation, etc...) American workers are "expensive" to American companies, but that term "expensive" seems to look only at a raw dollar amount and mostly ignores the benefits of native language speaking, matching cultures, and the drag on the economy that is caused by "laying off" someone and reducing or eliminating their Disposable Income, etc... |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
But at the same time the companies in THEIR countries are offering jobs and dare to ask OUR employment centers to send them workers! Hallo? Why don't they take workers from their own country at first? There are enough unemployed but qualified people in these countries, too! There you see what happens when people think common sense comes with money. The more I watch what's happening here in Germany, in Europe, and in the world - the more I tend to think that the intelligence and common sense of people - especially of people in politics and industry - recedes in the same speed as their income is rising!!! Account frozen... |
John Clark Send message Joined: 29 Sep 99 Posts: 16515 Credit: 4,418,829 RAC: 0 |
As a Brit who voted to stay in the Common Market in 1973, I tend to agree with Thorin's sentiments. If the Common Market, as a trading block tied together under NATO (at the time), had been allowed to develop naturally. I think the increased inter-trading between member states would have resulted, over a 100 years or so, in calls for integration and common systems (law, political institutions, currency, etc). In other words the trade interests would have developed such strong and interdependent links that the move towards a Federation would have been overwhelming. Unfortunately, the politicians in power, including those in the UK, saw an opportunity to create power and money spinning opportunities for themselves. Indeed, they have agreed and legislated far faster speed that that the native populations would have wanted to happen. If I had seen the history of the Common Market, as it has since developed to become the European Union. Then I, for one, would have voted to leave. I think the majority of the UK citizens who voted then would have done exactly the same. There is some good things about the EU, but not enough to convince me that Britain has benefited by being a partner country. As regards the argument that the EU has kept it's member states from getting in to conflict with each other. Was that not the claim NATO also made? I think the development of Europe as a trading block of partner countries with similar trading interests was good. But much of the subsequent law, etc, has been totally worthless, and only to the benefit of the Politicians at the top or those with their snouts in the trough! It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues |
Brian Silvers Send message Joined: 11 Jun 99 Posts: 1681 Credit: 492,052 RAC: 0 |
But much of the subsequent law, etc, has been totally worthless, and only to the benefit of the Politicians at the top or those with their snouts in the trough! Big man, pig man Ha, ha, charade you are |
Rush Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 3131 Credit: 302,569 RAC: 0 |
But I go even further in my point of view. Not only that I think that the EC has a too huge impact on the national legal, political and economical systems of the EU countries, I think even the introduction of the Euro as a common currency came way too early, like putting the cart before the horse. Oh yeah, shut it down. That would be awesome AND hilarious. You should get a bunch of people who think like you do and go stand around in the park across from Parliament in London and yell dippy slogans. That always seems to convince them. What advantage has come since the EU for the average person anyway? None. Quite the opposite. Which is, of course, simply dead wrong. One of the main advantages is to combat the hegemony of the U.S. dollar as the de facto world currency. That way not as much of the U.S. standard of living is financed on the backs of the citizens of the rest of the world. Even the introduction of the Euro had a huge disadvantage: when the Euro became official currency, it meant an almost 100% inflation (at least in Germany), because all prizes had the same digits like in DM but in Euro instead (with € 1 = DM 1,9588, so that a thing that did cost 1 DM the day before did cost 1 Euro then), while all wages and social welfare incomes had been cut in half according to that exchange rate. How else would one standardize a one-time exchange rate? Cordially, Rush elrushbo2@theobviousgmail.com Remove the obvious... |
Fuzzy Hollynoodles Send message Joined: 3 Apr 99 Posts: 9659 Credit: 251,998 RAC: 0 |
Check out this article: That is the only logical consequence IMO. Here there has recently been a change in the public opinion from a strong resistance against the € to a majority in some public opinion polls to say yes to it. And there is also a majority about giving up on some of the Danish opt-outs from the Maastricht Treaty. Times are changing... "I'm trying to maintain a shred of dignity in this world." - Me |
thorin belvrog Send message Joined: 29 Sep 06 Posts: 6418 Credit: 8,893 RAC: 0 |
I voted to come out of the EU or Common Market as it was once known, and I have been proved right, but it gives me no satisfaction to see that. There is wholesale corruption across the bureaucratic process running it, and even the UK MEP's all have their snouts in the trough milking it for every cent they can get. If you ask anyone here on the streets what they think about the EU: as long as they don't do belong to Big Business themselves, they'll all tell you that they are against it and will tell you what became worse since the EU rules over Germany. Half of the people even still count in DM and yell about the high prices everywhere. The German government knows very well why they haven't had a referendum concerning both, membership in the EU and the introduction of the Euro: With a majority of the people against it they would have lost big time... Well - that's called "democracy". Account frozen... |
Norman Copeland Send message Joined: 2 Jan 08 Posts: 593 Credit: 68,282 RAC: 0 |
The differing cultures of Europe represents a beautification of cultural wealth. Is money the reason we should dismantle that... |
John Clark Send message Joined: 29 Sep 99 Posts: 16515 Credit: 4,418,829 RAC: 0 |
I support the comments in Thorin's post below. I find this very interesting, as I thought the most Euroskeptic country was Britian. It is a pity the politicians do not listen to the people, even in our European democracies. If they did, then we would have a open trade Europe like the one prior to 1985. From this trading an integrated Europe might grow, over many decades. This would allow us all to understand each other better. It's good to be back amongst friends and colleagues |
Mike Send message Joined: 17 Feb 01 Posts: 34267 Credit: 79,922,639 RAC: 80 |
Since all of our countries have different cultures i´m not scared about that. China and Japan are doing this over 500 years by the way. With each crime and every kindness we birth our future. |
Mike Send message Joined: 17 Feb 01 Posts: 34267 Credit: 79,922,639 RAC: 80 |
Since all of our countries have different cultures i´m not scared about that. Its on us normal people how things should work. In germany the national feeling is much better than before. The world cup 2006 has shown how our country is about. Home at friends and i´m sure england would be the same lovely place as it is now. Nothing to be worry about. With each crime and every kindness we birth our future. |
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