The CITY council of Berkeley California does not have any authority over the activities of the USMC, a military arm of the FEDERAL government. Even the recruiting station out of which the Marines work is considered federal property and under federal jurisdiction. The Civil War settled the question of federal precedence over local government...

If I didn't get my point across clearly enough, I apologize and will try again.

I wanted to point out that one body was elected to pass legislation and act as it sees fit in the interests of those who elected them, while the other has no power to act autonomously and must adhere to and follow orders from it's ranking leadership who in turn receive their instructions from Washington.


I was not implying that the USMC was under the jurisdiction of the Berkeley council even though in rereading the post I can see where I should have expanded a little bit in my explanation.

Actually the job of the council is not only to represent the populace, but to also do what's right for the city as well. What do you suppose would happen to the economy of Berkeley if the military base is shut down, or if the Marines stationed at the location are simply forbidden to leave the base? Not to mention the potential loss of millions of dollars in federal funding...

I also found an interesting comment indicating that the council very well may be acting against the wishes of it constituents: Councilwoman Dona Spring said the council should not be cowed by the volume of hate mail and threats.

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One of your heroes, Donald Rumsfeld, stated way back when he had a job that he'd like to close at least 1/3 of the bases in the US.

Looking at this list, I wonder if that's enough.

http://www.globemaster.de/regbases.html

Of course this list is not complete as there are bases that just don't exist on the books.

So if the Aliens land in Berkeley, do we send in the Colonial Marines or just let the face-huggers have their way with the population?

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Hopefully the cosmos is not trying to reverse the charges.
Moderation in all things.

What do you suppose would happen to the economy of Berkeley if the military base is shut down, [snip] Not to mention the potential loss of millions of dollars in federal funding...

It is that kind of arrogance, that has self-destroyed many regimes in the past... ;)

(After all your preaching about how any american can be independently successful, now this?)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

One of your heroes, Donald Rumsfeld, stated way back when he had a job that he'd like to close at least 1/3 of the bases in the US.

Looking at this list, I wonder if that's enough.

http://www.globemaster.de/regbases.html

Of course this list is not complete as there are bases that just don't exist on the books.

Big difference between wanting to close bases in order to save federal funds and passing legislation making harassment of Marines "legal".

Part of Rumsfeld's job was to do what's right for the entire country, not individual cities...but maybe you don't know the difference between federal and local officials.

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harassment of Marines

I thought marines were suppose to be tuff... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

So if the Aliens land in Berkeley, do we send in the Colonial Marines or just let the face-huggers have their way with the population?

The aliens just make prank phone calls to SETI.

Do tell us more, I'm curious..

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But other than the ones I just listed I guess the military just shoos them away.

Maybe we should have the Army drag some cannons and shoot them in front of city hall in berkely ever city council meeting. That wouldn't be disruptive would it?

Nice to see how fast they retracted their anti USMC stance. They waffled for a while and then realized the error. Seems the Pro American side is winning. Oh, and while I'm at it I'll point out that it's the anti Islamic Fascism side losing too. They won't lose in Europe though. That's a lost cause. Even the Bishop of Canterbury is now advocating Sharia law. Those poor women are in for a surprise.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Oh, and while I'm at it I'll point out that it's the anti Islamic Fascism side losing too.

What does that have to do with the USMC bullying students at Berkeley? ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

Up with the revolution, hooray for Chairman Mao! Hooray for Che and Fidel! Down with the running dog capitalists and their corporate toadies!

All you have to do is join us brothers and sisters and there will be peace and freedom throughout the world!

Especially after we round up all that disagree with us and put them in a gulag.

The comments that are being posted here are being reviewed by our reeduation committee. The names of deviants that insist on denying the benefits of collectivism will be noted in the files of the Supreme Soviet of Berkeley.

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Man - a creature made at the end of the week's work when God was tired. - Mark Twain

The names of deviants that insist on denying the benefits of collectivism will be noted in the files of the Supreme Soviet of Berkeley.

The military industrial complex is already keeping a tally... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

It is just right that these Recruiting Centers in Berkeley have been shut.
Imho those who WISH to go the military (no matter if it is Marines, Navy, Army or Air Force) will find their way there also without those soul-hunters called recruiters.
There is no need that the military has to be present on each place, mall, school, university etc. etc.
What are the USA? A military Junta? I think not. Hence, shut down ALL Recruitment Centers, no matter where!

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It is just right that these Recruiting Centers in Berkeley have been shut.
Imho those who WISH to go the military (no matter if it is Marines, Navy, Army or Air Force) will find their way there also without those soul-hunters called recruiters.
There is no need that the military has to be present on each place, mall, school, university etc. etc.
What are the USA? A military Junta? I think not. Hence, shut down ALL Recruitment Centers, no matter where!

Do you think the recruiters go into the streets and drag people into the Army?

What is wrong with you? You say that those who wish to join the military "will find their way there". Don't you understand that "there" is the local recruiting office?

The United States has a right to defend itself, and has always maintained a military to do that. No State, city, county or township has the right to prevent US military recruiters from accepting new members in recruiting offices located on property that is owned or leased by the US government. In this same vein, if any State institution accepts Federal money, their refusal to allow military recruiters on that State institution's premises (at reasonable times) to give prospective members information about the military, should be cause to re-examine the grant of federal money to that institution.

Do you think the recruiters go into the streets and drag people into the Army?

What is wrong with you? You say that those who wish to join the military "will find their way there". Don't you understand that "there" is the local recruiting office?

I was going to say something similar. The "Recruiting Office" is where both "recruiting" happens and where people who have already made up their mind go to finalize the paperwork and whatnot... I think the objection is with the "recruiting". I can tell you first hand that it can be annoying, but no more so than any telemarketer if you're just not interested in what they're selling.

The story:

I scored high on ASVAB. I took it in high school to just do something to get out of class. Idiot me actually tried to answer successfully though... LOL. From the summer of 1989 until probably sometime in 1993, I would get "follow-up" phone calls from the Navy. They wanted me for 6 years (2 in school in Florida, 2 at a tokamak reactor somewhere, and 2 on a nuclear sub). I wasn't interested (although I probably should've been)... Due to lack of use, I remember very little about higher math, such as Calculus and higher, and I'd probably be hard pressed to do Geometry proofs. I probably could get back into it if I tried...

Do you think the recruiters go into the streets and drag people into the Army?

No. I think they go into High schools, Colleges, Universities, feeding the youth with lies to make them serve voluntarily, just like the Pied Piper of Hamelin.

What is wrong with you? You say that those who wish to join the military "will find their way there". Don't you understand that "there" is the local recruiting office?

I meant with "there" the units themselves, not some office in town. When my father was as young as most privates are, he wanted to attend the Legion Etranger, the Foreign Legion. He found his way there though there was NO single recruiter in Germany. He had to go to France to attend them, and even there he met no recruiter, because there was none. And still he had to wait in a long line of volunteers when he arrived at his goal. Why? Because all these volunteers were interested enough to find the Legion.

The United States has a right to defend itself

You'll hear no argument from me in that, since every country has the right to defend themselves when they are attacked. Do you think the USA are the only country that has that right?
BUT: has there been any single aggressive action by any country the USA marched into, since Pearl Harbor (besides this inside job on 9/11)?
NO, there hasn't!
There has been NO NEED for the USA to defend themselves against any other country since 1945. Even Pearl Harbor - heck, that was just an over-sea station on a place the Navy had no reason to be in the first place, they were only there to represent America's wish to show-off as a military super-power everywhere! They even overreacted on this attack! The attack on Pearl Harbor being an attack on the entire United States of America? Go figure!
And Korea? Vietnam? Grenada? Kuba? Bolivia? Kuwait? Afghanistan? Iraq? All the other countries US troops went into?
Have these countries attacked the USA that they had to defend themselves?
So why do the USA need such a big military machine? For nothing but invading other countries and beginning wars, to keep the profits of the military industry rising,

... and has always maintained a military to do that.

Right.
Do you want to know the real "Axis of Evil"? See the producers of weapons, ammo and armory, and their lobbyists in politics and media - fight the MIC, and you get the true terrorists!

No State, city, county or township has the right to prevent US military recruiters from accepting new members in recruiting offices located on property that is owned or leased by the US government. In this same vein, if any State institution accepts Federal money, their refusal to allow military recruiters on that State institution's premises (at reasonable times) to give prospective members information about the military, should be cause to re-examine the grant of federal money to that institution.

So when I understand you right, the military has the right to order mayors, congress men, governors etc who were elected by the people around with no urgent need? To even black-mail public, civil institutions to either let them in, or already granted Federal money will be refused?
That has nothing to do with democracy as I understand it, that's methods of a dictatorship, of a Military Junta!

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There has been NO NEED for the USA to defend themselves against any other country since 1945. Even Pearl Harbor - heck, that was just an over-sea station on a place the Navy had no reason to be in the first place, they were only there to represent America's wish to show-off as a military super-power everywhere! They even overreacted on this attack! The attack on Pearl Harbor being an attack on the entire United States of America? Go figure!

You really should read up on history before trying to claim "show off". The fleet was there to try to protect others, one of which was ironically China. Several nations were quite upset with Japan's aggression in China, but notably not your country (Germany), who was under control of a dictator / madman. After the attack on December 7th, Japan formally declared war on US on December 8th. According to what I'm reading, the formal declaration was actually supposed to have happened about 30 minutes BEFORE the attack on December 7th, but the person delivering the message got delayed.

Interesting how Japan was the aggressor, but some 67 years later, you wish to rewrite history...

The presense in the Pacific was merely an attempt to keep Japan at bay. Yamamato, Tojo, Hirohito, and others decided that they didn't like that, so they started something. Then Hitler made a boo-boo and paired up with Japan in declaring war...

The actions of your country as well as Japan helped shape the actions in the years since. If it hadn't been for the attack and Hitler's alliance with Japan, our country probably wouldn't have entered Europe until 1943 or 1944, since we were at the time pretty much isolationist.

Please, try to understand history. It's all nice to babble on and on about how evil we are. Hell, it's even trendy over there... The problem is that this country has learned that if we're not prepared, the fight will come to us. The isolationism caused us to get burned.

Isolationism is what is driving the whole Berkeley stuff anyway, and it is the opinion you seem to be stating as well. These morons scream "no blood for oil", then will turn right around and complain about the price of gas. When there are proposals about drilling to find more oil, these same morons will oppose that. Nuclear power? Oppose that too, even though U.S. reactor designs are far safer than the propaganda machine make them out to be.

As for Iraq, and only Iraq, I'm not convinced it was the right thing to do with as little support as was had at the time.

As for Afghanistan, I have no problem with that, and I have a relative that was injured there...

I meant with "there" the units themselves, not some office in town. When my father was as young as most privates are, he wanted to attend the Legion Etranger, the Foreign Legion. He found his way there though there was NO single recruiter in Germany. He had to go to France to attend them, and even there he met no recruiter, because there was none. And still he had to wait in a long line of volunteers when he arrived at his goal. Why? Because all these volunteers were interested enough to find the Legion.

Oh, and for the second time, the "Recruiting Office" is the exact same place as your "Legion" office. People who have made up their mind to join go to the same place.

Hey Brian no pun intended, I just was upset about this "We need the recruitment centers because we need a bigger army" attidute of Qui-Gon, that I couldn't hold my horses.

There has been NO NEED for the USA to defend themselves against any other country since 1945. Even Pearl Harbor - heck, that was just an over-sea station on a place the Navy had no reason to be in the first place, they were only there to represent America's wish to show-off as a military super-power everywhere! They even overreacted on this attack! The attack on Pearl Harbor being an attack on the entire United States of America? Go figure!

You really should read up on history before trying to claim "show off". The fleet was there to try to protect others, one of which was ironically China.

Aaah I see: Once more the USA as the World's Uber-sheriff...

After the attack on December 7th, Japan formally declared war on US on December 8th. According to what I'm reading, the formal declaration was actually supposed to have happened about 30 minutes BEFORE the attack on December 7th, but the person delivering the message got delayed.

Well, in my opinion this declaraton of war by the Japanese Tenno was as if let's say Switzerland or the Vatican would declare war on US - a too little country to be a serious threat and too far away to be really effective with the little ressources they had, but it was a sign to "not lose their face". Since the Tenno was no Hitler., there were other ways possible than this war there, and to drop those nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki some time later - which was totally exaggerated, inhuman, and showed some more time that the US want to be seen as nothing else than a military superpower.

The actions of your country as well as Japan helped shape the actions in the years since. If it hadn't been for the attack and Hitler's alliance with Japan, our country probably wouldn't have entered Europe until 1943 or 1944, since we were at the time pretty much isolationist.

What is to say against isolationism? If I were deciding here in Germany, I would end Germany's membership in the EU & in the NATO, and would try to be neutral.

The problem is that this country has learned that if we're not prepared, the fight will come to us. The isolationism caused us to get burned.

Right. The US were FORCED by being attacked to enter Korea, Vietnam, and all the other countries since. Or was it the other way around? Invade these countries before they are even ready to think about attacking us? Like: Kick their a**es as long as they are weak, that they learn who's the boss!
Sorry but do you really believe that militaristic crap you're tryig to tell me?

Isolationism is what is driving the whole Berkeley stuff anyway, and it is the opinion you seem to be stating as well.

And why not? Haven't enough American and foreign people died in wars the US have started by invasion? I have nothing against having military trained forces to keep the power to defend the country - but the US military is not defending, it's attacking others. For pure Defence, you don't even need all these forces that exist now. Just the National Guard, in need reinforced by the Reserves, would be enough.

These morons scream "no blood for oil", then will turn right around and complain about the price of gas.

Sure. Blame the customers when companies raise their prices out of sheer greed.

When there are proposals about drilling to find more oil, these same morons will oppose that.

What, to find more oil? ou already have enough. And you could ask Canada to export some to you. Just squeeze the oil ressources you already have before drilling to open more wells.

Nuclear power? Oppose that too, even though U.S. reactor designs are far safer than the propaganda machine make them out to be.

Who says they are safe? Even in Germany where we have one of the strictest standards in the world, where you can say that the reactors are safe, there almost happened a GAU some years ago. The reactor in Tchernobyl was also supposed to be "far safer than the propaganda machine make them out to be". That much for topic Nuclear Power.

I meant with "there" the units themselves, not some office in town. When my father was as young as most privates are, he wanted to attend the Legion Etranger, the Foreign Legion. He found his way there though there was NO single recruiter in Germany. He had to go to France to attend them, and even there he met no recruiter, because there was none. And still he had to wait in a long line of volunteers when he arrived at his goal. Why? Because all these volunteers were interested enough to find the Legion.

Oh, and for the second time, the "Recruiting Office" is the exact same place as your "Legion" office. People who have made up their mind to join go to the same place.

No. "The exact same place" would be if the volunteers went right to the divisions, companies, etc directly, without having met anyone trying to talk them into it. And I met and watched recruiters when I've been in the States - I know they are telling even worse lies than door-to-door insurance sellers.

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Aaah I see: Once more the USA as the World's Uber-sheriff...

Would you have preferred continued isolationism? Would you, as a German, prefer to have had Hitler's rule to continue over there? Would you have preferred the V-3 to have obliterated London? Would you have preferred Japan to have "annexed" Austrailia?

After the attack on December 7th, Japan formally declared war on US on December 8th. According to what I'm reading, the formal declaration was actually supposed to have happened about 30 minutes BEFORE the attack on December 7th, but the person delivering the message got delayed.

Well, in my opinion this declaraton of war by the Japanese Tenno was as if let's say Switzerland or the Vatican would declare war on US - a too little country to be a serious threat and too far away to be really effective with the little ressources they had, but it was a sign to "not lose their face". Since the Tenno was no Hitler., there were other ways possible than this war there,

I see. So if, say, Iran, were to blow up multiple main shipping ports in Rostok, Hamburg, and Bremen, you'd suggest that they were just too far away to be effective and roll over?

and to drop those nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki some time later - which was totally exaggerated, inhuman, and showed some more time that the US want to be seen as nothing else than a military superpower.

That is a subject of debate. Historically, the culture of warriors in Japan has been "never give up". There are claims that various factions inside the empire were willing to surrender without the nuclear bombs, but yet there are counter-claims that if an attempt at an invasion were to have happened, orders from the Japanese military were to kill all POWs held by Japan.

What is to say against isolationism? If I were deciding here in Germany, I would end Germany's membership in the EU & in the NATO, and would try to be neutral.

Various "Neutrality Pact" agreements were made during the course of WW2. In fact, one such was made here in 1939, allowing the purchase of weapons on a "cash only" ("cash and carry") basis. The Baltic states made 10-year agreements with the Soviet Union which came back to bite them.

I think if Germany were to attempt isolationism, it would be seen as a very bad sign by most of Europe and most likely by us as well. One scenario I envision for WW3 is a merge of Belarus and Russia, followed by conquest of the Baltics again, with your country siding with Russia in an "anti-West" stance...

For pure Defence, you don't even need all these forces that exist now. Just the National Guard, in need reinforced by the Reserves, would be enough.

This is where you are babbling without having a clue again. The clear advantage in any modern combat is air and naval superiority. Without a naval fleet with the capabilities of ours, I find it likely that Akula, Delta, and Typhoon class submarines would be taking up positions off of both coasts right now.

These morons scream "no blood for oil", then will turn right around and complain about the price of gas.

Sure. Blame the customers when companies raise their prices out of sheer greed.

If the companies were allowed to build more platforms and expand refinery capacity, dependence upon that area of the world would be greatly diminished. It would diminish the "I can control your economy any time I want to, so don't push us for reforming how we treat women" stance of the Arabic world. It would also promote "isolationism". Seems as though it's not "ok" if that were to happen and someone makes money, eh?

When there are proposals about drilling to find more oil, these same morons will oppose that.

What, to find more oil? ou already have enough. And you could ask Canada to export some to you. Just squeeze the oil ressources you already have before drilling to open more wells.

Actually, that is too short-sighted, as is drilling alone. Research needs to be made into alternative sources of fuel, such as biofuels and hydrogen. Of course, these would typically be "environmentalist" dream topics, and you'd think would be on the agenda of Clinton or Obama, should either of them get elected, but I guarantee you that "Universal Health Care" and raising the "Minimum Wage" will come first, with funding probably cut away from R&D to support it...

Nuclear power? Oppose that too, even though U.S. reactor designs are far safer than the propaganda machine make them out to be.

Who says they are safe? Even in Germany where we have one of the strictest standards in the world, where you can say that the reactors are safe, there almost happened a GAU some years ago. The reactor in Tchernobyl was also supposed to be "far safer than the propaganda machine make them out to be". That much for topic Nuclear Power.

The plant at Turkey Point, Florida, survived a direct hit from Hurricane Andrew in 1992. The incident at Three Mile Island was the worst this country has had, and it was minor in relation to Chernobyl. The build of Chernobyl only had partial containment and used the graphite tipped control rods, which speed up reaction temporarily, hence the disaster. Pyrolytic Carbon is a better choice, but it was probably not something the Soviet Union was aware of. That whole reactor design was poorly thought out.

Oh, and for the second time, the "Recruiting Office" is the exact same place as your "Legion" office. People who have made up their mind to join go to the same place.

No. "The exact same place" would be if the volunteers went right to the divisions, companies, etc directly, without having met anyone trying to talk them into it. And I met and watched recruiters when I've been in the States - I know they are telling even worse lies than door-to-door insurance sellers.

Again, you're showing your ignorance of how enlistment works here. I can have decided that I want to join and not talked to anyone at all, but I still have to go to a "recruiter". In this role the "recruiter" is actually more of an "advisor", trying to match up the person's physical and mental abilities to a particular area of specialization, and thus determine the branch and career path that would be best suited for that individual. Part of that process is the ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery), which, at least in 1989, I had a high enough score in Math and Science to be soliticted by the Navy for a very prestigious career path as a Nuclear Power Officer. In some respects, I regret turning it down...

I see you really believe what they want you believe. That countries like Iraq, Iran etc really are evil, and an exaggerating big military machine is needed just to show superiority.
With all this superior power, with all these latest, state-of-the art weapons the USA possess (and Iraq doesn't), how comes that the war in Iraq is still running, and the miliitary still needs to recruit cannon fodder? That the USA still need to "advise" the young people to join military instead of giving them a future in civil life?

Having served in military myself when I was young, I have only one advise for the youth: refuse to listen to those recruiters if you haven't joined military yet, and refuse to take orders and desert asap if they have already talked you into joining, if you don't want to return home dead or as a wreck!

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I just was upset about this "We need the recruitment centers because we need a bigger army" attidute of Qui-Gon, that I couldn't hold my horses.

Seems to me that engaging your mouth before starting your brain is more of a habit for you rather than accident...then you respond with outright lies in support of your insanity. No where do I see Qui-Gon claiming that we need a "bigger Army". He's just pointing out the numerous errors in your way of thinking...

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