I can't help but notice that alot of the replies to my original post have shown that the prevalent emotion when making your decisions is fear. Fear of bank/mortgage, fear of credit rating, fear of job stability, fear of black-listing etc.

Making your decisions with the prevalent emotion being desire is much more empowering and conducive to contentment.

You appear to be reading much more into what has been said.

I was asking how the working people should approach the employer about changes to conditions and standards in the workplace.
Individually or collectively?

To suggest telling the boss to "Sod off" then bring up fear fo job stability, mortgages and credit ratings seems quite a leap in logic to me.
If one is going to follow your original "Sod off" advice, all those other items go out the window. You lose them.

My logic there is why are you working for an employer who puts you in that position? Bad employer = sod off. Good employer = no need for sod off = better decision.

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Take responsibility, or take orders!

Never argue with idiots, they'll always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Dave H
You're making the same assumptions my self-employed father and brother make.
You're thinking in terms of a small work environment where everyone knows each other and is in close contact with the boss everyday.

It's not difficult to communicate information from the bottom to the top in that setting.

How does this apply to a corporate situation where there can be tens of thousands of employees and multiple levels of management?

How does John or Jane Doe evaluate a CEO they will never meet but must live by edicts passed down from.

Dave H
You're making the same assumptions my self-employed father and brother make.
You're thinking in terms of a small work environment where everyone knows each other and is in close contact with the boss everyday.

It's not difficult to communicate information from the bottom to the top in that setting.

How does this apply to a corporate situation where there can be tens of thousands of employees and multiple levels of management?

How does John or Jane Doe evaluate a CEO they will never meet but must live by edicts passed down from.

Sure thats a valid point. However if the edicts that keep getting passed down are not to your liking, then you can Choose to accept them and keep working there (fear of losing job), or you can Choose to resign (with or without a sod off) and make your decision to look elsewhere (desire to be better treated).

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Take responsibility, or take orders!

Never argue with idiots, they'll always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I guess we're not connecting here somehow.

You admire the quality of perseverance in the self employed but feel that working people should give up and quit their jobs rather than seek change in the workplace.

This, of course, negates the value brought to the job by employees by implying their opinions are without merit when they are in opposition to those of the employer.

I guess we're not connecting here somehow.

You admire the quality of perseverance in the self employed but feel that working people should give up and quit their jobs rather than seek change in the workplace.

What??? I think you are correct when you say we are not connecting as that is not my point at all.

Basically I respect people who stand up for themselves on their own 2 feet, who have the courage to tell their employers, peers etc what they want and what they wont accept. I could care less if they are self employed. What I don't respect are people who complain about their oh so terrible boss/employer/work conditions etc yet do nothing because they are basically cowards.

You think, yup thats exactly what the union is for, to stand up for the people. I say, take the responsibility and do it yourself.

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Take responsibility, or take orders!

Never argue with idiots, they'll always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I say, take the responsibility and do it yourself.

Sounds good, but how is one employee in thousands able to do this?

Another thing comes to mind. What employer has the time to deal with every employee and their concerns?
If you are a relatively small company with about 40 employees, do you have time to listen to everyone's requests for changes or ideas about the workplace?

How would this approach work at AT&T or CN Rail?

This is why I think you're making the mistake most small business people do by equating their experience with large companies.

I say, take the responsibility and do it yourself.

Sounds good, but how is one employee in thousands able to do this?



By choosing to work for a company that values them and has a clear line of communication with the Peking order.



Another thing comes to mind. What employer has the time to deal with every employee and their concerns?



It takes very little time as the employees of enlightened/well managed companies have very few serious concerns, because they are valued and not considered cattle.



If you are a relatively small company with about 40 employees, do you have time to listen to everyone's requests for changes or ideas about the workplace?



If you run your company well you do not get bombarded with requests for change, you get happy, highly productive staff.





How would this approach work at AT&T or CN Rail?



I have worked as a manager for the then largest company on planet earth, Aol-Time Warner, and it worked very well for me in my little corner of that monstrosity. it didn't take much time, I simply asked my staff to all be at work 5 minutes before they started, I then held a 5 min meeting with them all every single day in which they informed me of any problems/concerns/items of importance, and I informed them of any results I had achieved on any of their previous concerns.

Most of their concerns I had the authority to fix myself, all others I took up with the people who did. My staff were happy to donate 5 mins of their time (most staff are in having a coffee anyway), because they knew I would get whatever results for them I could. Result; happy staff = popular/succesful manager.



This is why I think you're making the mistake most small business people do by equating their experience with large companies.



Small business person? see above lol. I guess now I am as I do not have employees:)

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Take responsibility, or take orders!

Never argue with idiots, they'll always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Basically I respect people who stand up for themselves on their own 2 feet, who have the courage to tell their employers, peers etc what they want and what they wont accept.

What I don't respect are people who complain about their oh so terrible boss/employer/work conditions etc yet do nothing because they are basically cowards.

And yet in my case you refer to my actions as: 'self fulfilling prophecies' out of 'fear'... Interesting, but not very consistent... ;)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I worked for a major telecom for 17 years before working where I do now, and the picture you describe at AOL Time Warner is the exact opposite of my experience.

First level managers were powerless to initiate any change at all and would not bring concerns from the workplace to their bosses.

Most were afraid to even be noticed by those above in the hiarchy.

I'll take you on your word that the situation you presented was true and I can somewhat more understand your opinion on unions.
Having said this, I would hope you will have a better understanding of why someone would want a union based on some of the things I've experienced at work.

PS: Nice to have a debate without having it turn into a pissing contest.
Thank you for your civility

Robert Waite, answer the question.

Why not UNIONIZE everybody ?

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

I think it's funny how almost noone has formed a contrast between the egoism thread's premises and flavor vs the altruism's thread and flavor....

Real real interesting.

Reposting. Some have tops to bottoms.
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Joined: May 21 01
Posts: 11482
ID: 278698
Credit: 34,969
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Message 668135 - Posted 28 Oct 2007 12:14:11 UTC
There's an 'Altruism' thread.

We ought to have an Egoism thread.

There's great things in music, philosophy, art, ethics, and everything in between that should be extolled in contradiction to the Altruism thread.

Sometimes people that feel like I/we do that there is superb sublime beauty in the world feel a little bit 'left out'

The predominant 'ideal' of the day is an ethical system of altruism, not rational egoism.

Have you ever just set down quietly and listened to phenomenoly perfect music and wondered why why it was possible to hear such a creation in the first place?

Have you ever just thought one time when you were younger and perfectly unadulterated by cynicism that you were just a little bit better.. and imagined how the romance of the ideal man or woman would exist here and now and not in some long past unsatisfactory Dickens book that those were open possibilities for you?

I'm going to insist that all of those precious things you hold into your deepest bits of your soul mean something beautiful. I want to show how love starts..love for art logic, even trees dipping in the wind. All ideas of amore' start with philosophy that develops from something so rational and proper...and such a thing called 'reason'. It's not hard to understand. It's especially not surprising for the brightest among us to see how that the things we demand and insist upon in these heros of ours don't come to us in some religious bit of vaccuum.

The ideal that all of you probably love is demanded by what is required for that blessed soul to form into something noble.

Men and women throughout history have fought for egoism and individualism and strength. Some have surrenedered. Some have succeeded. Some just went quietly into the night and gave up.

There's an altruism thread. I'd like there to be an egoism thread as an alternative. In tribute to those people (especially the stonger women) it's owed.

Pessimism and hate for man should be countered by every measure by the rest of the rational.

Great praise for the efforts of all of us won't be wasted if enough praise is lauded upon it.
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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Robert Waite, answer the question.

Why not UNIONIZE everybody ?

Hardly practical

Having said that, if a workplace wishes to unionize, that is their right to do so.

note to self: polluting thread no longer an issue

note to self: polluting thread no longer an issue

They seem to change their minds more often than I change my underpants... ;)

(Daily, if you must know.)

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It may not be 1984 but George Orwell sure did see the future . . .

I think it's funny how almost noone has formed a contrast between the egoism thread's premises and flavor vs the altruism's thread and flavor....

Real real interesting.

Because it's like discussing the difference between black and white, right and wrong or alive and dead.
In other words....NOT real real interesting to anyone outside a small clique of 3rd year philosophy students.

I think it's funny how almost noone has formed a contrast between the egoism thread's premises and flavor vs the altruism's thread and flavor....

Real real interesting.

Because it's like discussing the difference between black and white, right and wrong or alive and dead.
In other words....NOT real real interesting to anyone outside a small clique of 3rd year philosophy students.

Then make your damn point, Robert. Make a point or shut up and forever hold your peace. EITHER TAKE AN ETHICAL STANCE OR NOT.

Do we have a right to exist for our own sake or not? Do we have to serve others or are we compelled to serve others? Do we own ourselves or not?

These are all simple questions, Robert. Jeffrey and his radical brand of islam disagree....so do the evangelical righties.....and the lefties...........pick a position. Be a man of principle for once.

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

PS: Nice to have a debate without having it turn into a pissing contest.
Thank you for your civility

I was thinking much the same Robert, which is why I Chose to continue talking with you (wink).

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Take responsibility, or take orders!

Never argue with idiots, they'll always drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I was the 12th person to post within this thread.

I have made my point.

The egoist is nothing more than a stunted personality.

There is more to the meaning of existence than the self.

To seek philosophical justification for acts of egoism is simply another manifestation of the disorder.

It allows the egoist a way out from the responsibilities of their actions.

The egoist relies heavily on the writings of other egoists, who felt the same pangs of shame and guilt, so they sat down and created a branch of philosophy to rationalize and justify their actions and existence.

What else do you want?

note to self: polluting thread no longer an issue

They seem to change their minds more often than I change my underpants... ;)

(Daily, if you must know.)

Jeffrey, we can all see your picture....you don't wear underpants.

I was the 12th person to post within this thread.

I have made my point.

The egoist is nothing more than a stunted personality.

How so?> To steal from Rush...'cuz you sez so?' Stunted how? Stunted from Altruism and that murederous self sacrificial creed? If so then you and I are in agreement.

There is more to the meaning of existence than the self.

To seek philosophical justification for acts of egoism is simply another manifestation of the disorder.

It allows the egoist a way out from the responsibilities of their actions.

Then you know nothing of what enlightened self interest is. According to that ethos egoists take responsibility for their actions but NOT for you. We don't need you...get it?

The egoist relies heavily on the writings of other egoists, who felt the same pangs of shame and guilt, so they sat down and created a branch of philosophy to rationalize and justify their actions and existence.

What egoist relies on 'writings of other people' ? All thinkers, to some degree, stand on the shoulders of others; examples include scientists, statesmen, politicians, communist rebel leaders, and your local plumber...and the jerk that you hire to fix your Harley Davidson, Robert.

Rationalize what actions, Robert? Examples? Or do you just want to lay out a screed? If you're going to post nonsense then at least have the decency to make it long winded nonsense. Otherwise I'll just go back to arguing over kitty cat postings. It's all a waste of time. You want to use reason? If so then you've come to the right place. If not then there's a thread called 'Altruism' where I'm sure your brand of 'thinking' will be well received.

What else do you want?






[/quote]

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Founder of BOINC team Objectivists. Oh the humanity! Rational people crunching data!
I did NOT authorize this belly writing!

Are your feelings hurt because no one wants to talk about narcissism?
Too bad.

I've already stated to another of your brethren, it's not my Harley.
I just get to ride it when my brother lets me.